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joker
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joker
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 Thu May 21, 2015 7:31 pm |
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| Cohokiller wrote: | | Ok, short answer. If parental involvement is what makes the difference, why are you claiming that U.S. students tend to fall behind because of lack of money to pay for good schools and good teachers? |
First, I never claimed that about lack of money. Basic reading comprehension effort is in order here! Or am I forgetting something I wrote?
Second, my point about parental involvement is not that it is THE ONLY factor that matters, but rather that it is definitely ONE FACTOR that matters - if you hold other things equal, the statistics will show better academic performance in the kids whose parents were involved in their educational activity. Thus, if you are comparing sample groups where this involvement varies across the samples (e.g. comparing home schooled kids to public school students) you need to control for this variable or else your conclusions will be very questionable. This is a pretty basic sort of problem in comparing populations, and yet one that is missed in many naïve studies (of which many have been done around education!).
Speaking of which, if anyone gives you a simple answer to how to significantly improve the educational system, be very very skeptical. This is likely either coming from someone who has not looked at the problem space very deeply, or else from someone with some sort of axe to grind (or both). This is why you will not see me suggesting the sort of single-factor solution that Nac appears to suggest. And why I also balk at simplistic comparisons of public schooling to home or private schooling.
| Cohokiller wrote: | | I don't have time to dig up all the sources. I honestly didn't think anyone would question my claim since it's a fact that has been known for a long time. |
Well, it was known for a very long time that the sun circled the earth (I mean, it's also rather obvious - just look up in the sky each day!!). The USA Today quotes demonstrate the sort of sketchy comparison that I describe above. Does that data mean that parents will only get that outcome from home schooling? Or could they just as reliably get the same outcome from regularly asking their public-schooled kids questions about their coursework and helping them prep for tests? You don't need to dig up "all the sources" but if you can't share a single peer-reviewed study that controls for parental involvement, then I'll assert that it remains fully unclear the extent to which private schools are actually "doing a better job" than public schools.
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joker
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joker
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Thu May 21, 2015 7:39 pm |
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| Cohokiller wrote: | | Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Tesla, SpaceX ad nauseum....these are worldwide companies based in the United States. |
Companies who spend $$$$$ to lobby our elected officials to allow increased immigration quotas due to what they claim are challenges in hiring enough qualified employees from folks already in the country, and companies that have quite significant populations of folks who studied up through at least a Bachelor's degree outside of the US. So this says far more about the environment for running such businesses in the US than it does about the K-12 educational system here.
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Cohokiller
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| joker wrote: | | Thus, if you are comparing sample groups where this involvement varies across the samples (e.g. comparing home schooled kids to public school students) you need to control for this variable or else your conclusions will be very questionable.. |
Sure.
In your mind, what qualifies as parental involvement in such a way that you could apply it scientifically in a study?
| joker wrote: | | This is a pretty basic sort of problem in comparing populations, and yet one that is missed in many naïve studies. |
Yeah, everything is filtered through the eyes of the observer.
Homeschooled and private schooled kids have higher graduation rates, better GPA's and college admittance rates than public school kids.
Why don't YOU tell US why that is instead of sitting back and telling people they need to factor something into a study that is impossible to measure.
And of course if U.S. public schools are so bad, tell us why the United States still leads the world and why we alone are at the forefront of technology in the world.
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Cohokiller
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| joker wrote: | | Cohokiller wrote: | | Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Tesla, SpaceX ad nauseum....these are worldwide companies based in the United States. |
Companies who spend $$$$$ to lobby our elected officials to allow increased immigration quotas due to what they claim are challenges in hiring enough qualified employees from folks already in the country, and companies that have quite significant populations of folks who studied up through at least a Bachelor's degree outside of the US. So this says far more about the environment for running such businesses in the US than it does about the K-12 educational system here. |
Right, Americans don't reproduce fast enough in order to keep up with worker demand. (do you have kids?) Thus these companies must draw from other countries in order to meet demand.
Not to mention American students simply don't try and don't want those 80 hour work week jobs that MS and Amazon offer. Foreigners gobble them up because it gives them a chance to live in the United States...ya know...the country you believe that lags the world in everything. Ok, you at least acknowledged that this is a better country for business. 
I kid though.
Those of you complaining about American schools are all scientists, engineers and doctors right?
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joker
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joker
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Thu May 21, 2015 8:24 pm |
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You have attempted to stuff so many words into my mouth that I've lost interest in answering even your reasonable question about parental involvement - take a look at the heap-o-studies referenced in this survey paper for examples of how this is measured. Again, the point being that a simplistic correlation such as quoted from USA Today does not tell us anything about what's causing any measured differences.
Did I complain about schools??? I simply balked at a simplistic trashing of public education  .
| Cohokiller wrote: | | And of course if U.S. public schools are so bad, tell us why the United States still leads the world and why we alone are at the forefront of technology in the world. |
First off I never said they were "so bad," though I will cop to believing we should strive to continually improve them to remain competitive in an increasingly tough global marketplace with rising powers that deeply value education. Though I'm more concerned about our falling behind on investment in research than in differences in how we value education. Oh, and btw, 3 of the 5 tech companies that you listed above were founded by folks who were born and educated outside the US. We dismiss the technical prowess of other countries at our peril.
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NacMacFeegle
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| Klapton wrote: | | REALLY good teachers teach because it is their calling, not because there's money in it. |
So because they care so much about educating children they shouldn't be payed a decent wage? As a (supposed) former teacher how can you say that? Also, even the most enthusiastic prospective teacher is going to hesitate in choosing a career with pathetic pay and dim prospects.
| Klapton wrote: | | Sure it can. It currently exists in spite of government, not because of it. |
Government is a product of civilization, and in turn civilization is a product of government. The two are indivisible, and cannot exist separately. Even if you somehow succeeded in abolishing the government it would not be long before some other system took its place, and I can promise you that whatever that replacement was it would make you long for the good ol' days of Uncle Sam.
First the country would descend into chaos; no police, no services of any kind save those you pay through the nose for from a corporation. Millions of former government employees (including the armed forces), and the millions of jobs supported by the economic impact of those employees would disappear over night. The economic ripples would tear the country, and we would be plunged into a depression so deep that we might never escape it.
The chaos of this time would be unimaginable; natural disasters would be met with no response, diseases would spread uninhibited, criminals would run rampant with no possible repercussions for their actions. But even then in this dying wreck of a country we would not have our wonderful government-free playland for long. The rich would still be rich, even as the rest of the country collapsed around them. Living in fortified mansions and gated communities garrisoned with private security the rich would take their place as a kind of medieval nobility, with the rabble of impoverished peasants dependent upon them for protection from the criminal gangs that would own what parts of the country the rich didn't care to claim. In time they might well carve out their own countries from what had been the U.S.A., and we would become the Fragmented States of America. You would have not one, but many governments founded not on noble principles but upon greed and corruption.
Do you want to live in a third world country? Because that is what you are advocating when you call for the destruction of our government.
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Ski
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Ski
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Thu May 21, 2015 11:32 pm |
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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Cohokiller
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Too funny! As soon as I saw your post that was the first thing I thought of then I clicked your link and bam!
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Cohokiller
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| joker wrote: | | You have attempted to stuff so many words into my mouth that I've lost interest in answering even your reasonable question about parental involvement - take a look at the heap-o-studies referenced in this survey paper for examples of how this is measured. Again, the point being that a simplistic correlation such as quoted from USA Today does not tell us anything about what's causing any measured differences.
Did I complain about schools??? I simply balked at a simplistic trashing of public education . |
I agree. I am tired of people bashing public education and trying to "fix" it when the problem is the parents and the students.
The only thing "wrong" with the public school system is that it has to teach everyone and thus the curriculum and layout is dumbed down so as not to over challenge the lowest common denominator.
| joker wrote: | | . We dismiss the technical prowess of other countries at our peril. |
I don't think so. I think the "give government more money" crowd dismisses the main reason those geniuses from other countries started their companies here.
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Cohokiller
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| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | So because they care so much about educating children they shouldn't be payed a decent wage? |
Teachers do get paid a decent wage and they get a lot of days off that other people don't get. Disclaimer: My Dad and Grandmother were both teachers.
| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | Do you want to live in a third world country? Because that is what you are advocating when you call for the destruction of our government. |
If you look back in our history, western civilization and a continual increase in living standards, have correlated with greater and greater limits on government power.
Starting with the Magna Carta of course.
Countries with less government and lower taxes have more economic success.
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Klapton
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Klapton
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Fri May 22, 2015 7:01 am |
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| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | Klapton wrote: | | REALLY good teachers teach because it is their calling, not because there's money in it. |
So because they care so much about educating children they shouldn't be payed a decent wage? As a (supposed) former teacher how can you say that? Also, even the most enthusiastic prospective teacher is going to hesitate in choosing a career with pathetic pay and dim prospects. |
My pay was not pathetic, nor were my prospects dim. My brother's pay is also not pathetic. He lives comfortably. As for prospects, he could turn to the dark side and become one of those "administrators" that shouldn't exist, but he likes teaching (i.e. it's his calling).
| Quote: | | Klapton wrote: | | Sure it can. It currently exists in spite of government, not because of it. |
Government is a product of civilization, and in turn civilization is a product of government. The two are indivisible, and cannot exist separately. Even if you somehow succeeded in abolishing the government it would not be long before some other system took its place, and I can promise you that whatever that replacement was it would make you long for the good ol' days of Uncle Sam.
First the country would descend into chaos; no police, no services of any kind save those you pay through the nose for from a corporation. Millions of former government employees (including the armed forces), and the millions of jobs supported by the economic impact of those employees would disappear over night. The economic ripples would tear the country, and we would be plunged into a depression so deep that we might never escape it.
The chaos of this time would be unimaginable; natural disasters would be met with no response, diseases would spread uninhibited, criminals would run rampant with no possible repercussions for their actions. But even then in this dying wreck of a country we would not have our wonderful government-free playland for long. The rich would still be rich, even as the rest of the country collapsed around them. Living in fortified mansions and gated communities garrisoned with private security the rich would take their place as a kind of medieval nobility, with the rabble of impoverished peasants dependent upon them for protection from the criminal gangs that would own what parts of the country the rich didn't care to claim. In time they might well carve out their own countries from what had been the U.S.A., and we would become the Fragmented States of America. You would have not one, but many governments founded not on noble principles but upon greed and corruption.
Do you want to live in a third world country? Because that is what you are advocating when you call for the destruction of our government. |
Your prescience is remarkable. I could answer this vision of yours bit by bit, but it's early in the morning and I have work to do. It's probably also not worth the effort. It is true that most people, including you, are not prepared to govern themselves. If collapse of government (or our currency which would have similar effect) happened suddenly before more people have awakened to their own potential for self governance, there would be great chaos.
Just to be clear, btw... I don't want to overthrow government. I want to cancel it due to lack of interest. That will require a great awakening of sorts with much of the population recognizing government for what it is: a criminal organization given legitimacy by religious ritual.
Be well. I probably won't derail the thread any further.
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Fri May 22, 2015 7:59 am |
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| Cohokiller wrote: | | Countries with less government and lower taxes have more economic success. |
Yeah, right, Germany's economy sucks compared to Somalia Libertarian Paradise
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Dave Workman
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| Klapton wrote: | | If collapse of government (or our currency which would have similar effect) happened suddenly before more people have awakened to their own potential for self governance, there would be great chaos. |
Let's just hope it happens while I'm still young enough to participate 
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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joker
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joker
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Fri May 22, 2015 9:27 am |
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| Cohokiller wrote: | | the main reason those geniuses from other countries started their companies here |
Well, lessee, those particular foreign-born founders do have one thing in common - PhD study at Stanford. So that reason California weather, perhaps the convergence of top tech talent in a place where multiple research universities that have benefited from past strong US funding of basic research sit, or may be a combo of the two? Or is this going to be more of a case of
| Cohokiller wrote: | | Yeah, everything is filtered through the eyes of the observer. |
?
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Fri May 22, 2015 9:45 am |
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Kinda makes one go "huh" that the U.S. rose to become the world's most powerful economy during an era when the highest marginal personal income tax rate was 90%.
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