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touron
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Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 10293 | TRs | Pics
Location: Plymouth Rock |
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touron
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 Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:00 pm |
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Everett Herald article
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
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NacMacFeegle
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 2653 | TRs | Pics
Location: United States |
Even though I enjoy skiing immensely, I don't approve of ski areas being expanded. Improving/upgrading already developed areas is fine, and I think that opening them for mountain bikes in the summer is great. It means that these summertime eyesores aren't totally useless after the end of winter, it helps boost the economies of nearby communities, and it helps to keep wheels off of hiking trails. However, I don't think the forest service should allow them to plow up more public land and demolish historic structures.
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:14 pm |
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| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | I don't approve of ski areas being expanded. |
I didn't see anything in the article indicating that the permit area for Stevens was being expanded. It sounds like this project is replacing/upgrading existing chairs and building more "MTB runs" into existing ski trails. Do you have other knowledge about the Steven's permit boundaries being expanded ?.
| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | demolish historic structures. |
You mean the old chairlifts or water tank ? Does this mean you opposed replacing the nearly sinking Evergreen Point Bridge because it was historic ? I don't get it...
| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | I don't think the forest service should allow them to plow up more public land |
Are you saying the FS doesn't have the authority to do this, that the permit area is being expanded? or that the ski area shouldn't be able to do any regrading in their existing permit zone -- even if a NEPA review is properly conducted and finding of no significant impact is found?
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forest gnome
Forest nut...
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 3520 | TRs | Pics
Location: north cascades!! |
mee thinks he's like 12y.o. and doesn't hav a clue what he speaks of...and this is just my opin. from 2 posts
or a curmudgeoney old, non hiker guy...?  
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 7464 | TRs | Pics
Location: The Hermitage |
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:06 pm |
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I will guess that this is what Nac is referring to:
| Quote: | | When Stevens originally submitted its plan for improvements to the Forest Service in March of 2013, it had asked for permission to expand its parking lots on the north side of U.S. 2. That part of the project has not yet been approved.
A few cabins in the area would need to be removed to make room for parking, although the plan includes leaving three cabins standing. The cabins that would be removed could potentially be listed as historic buildings, said Joe Neal, Skykomish Ranger District. However, Neal said, the buildings are in poor repair and probably not suitable to be listed.
The Forest Service's archaeologist will submit information about the cabins to the State Historic Preservation Officer, who will determine if the buildings are eligible for the National Register of Historic Places, said Barry Collins of the Skykomish Ranger District. |
Nac's reaction is typical for him. I doubt he knows what cabins they're referring to nor does he know the area where the parking lots will be expanded. I could be wrong, but he has said many times that he is most familiar with areas South of I-90 and rarely travels to the Northern half of the range in this state.
The cabins are nothing special. I would guess they were built in the '50s. If they don't get listed/protected then "oh well." The area being considered for parking expansion is right next to the highway at the base of an old clearcut. It has no aesthetic or recreational value. Reducing parking hassles and congestion at the pass on busy days would be a good thing. The public will not be deprived of anything resembling wilderness or pristine forest by this expansion.
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NacMacFeegle
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 2653 | TRs | Pics
Location: United States |
| RandyHiker wrote: | | Do you have other knowledge about the Steven's permit boundaries being expanded ? |
From the Seattle Times:
| Quote: | | Under the long-term master plan, the number of chairlifts would increase to 15 from 12; the number of trails would grow to 237 trails on 938 acres from 130 on 588 acres. Restaurant seating would be increased, and parking added. |
The article that Touron linked indicates that only part of their master plan has been approved, so maybe you're right and the improvements are going to only be within the existing ski area. However, I couldn't find anything in the article that directly stated this.
| RandyHiker wrote: | | You mean the old chairlifts or water tank ? |
Did you even read the article? It mentions a number of old cabins that are being considered for the National Historic Register. However, I read through that part of the article again, and it appears that I was mistaken; the cabins are located where the ski area wants to build a parking lot, and the forest service hasn't approved that proposal yet.
| RandyHiker wrote: | | Are you saying the FS doesn't have the authority to do this, that the permit area is being expanded? |
No, they have the authority-though I don't think they should. Ski areas have too large a financial influence on National Forests, and tend to get what they want regardless of what might be best for the land or what the public's opinion is.
| RandyHiker wrote: | | or that the ski area shouldn't be able to do any regrading in their existing permit zone -- even if a NEPA review is properly conducted and finding of no significant impact is found? |
I thought I made it clear in my last post that I don't mind them upgrading within the existing permit zone. It's only expansions of that permit zone that I oppose.
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:01 pm |
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The Seattle times article that you linked is from 2009 and is about Steven's 2007 proposed expansion plan -- if what they are going forward with in 2015 is fixing up old lifts and building MTB tracks on existing ski runs it would seem that the more extensive 2007 plans haven't been approved by the USFS. Here is the 2015 USFS EA http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3855617.pdf
The EA is for a much more modest proposal -- it would appear that the 2007 plans aren't being actively being studied
Even so the 2007 plans only proposed increasing the permit area from 2,460 acres to 2600 acres.
In terms of the "old cabins" also note | Quote: | | However, Neal said, the buildings are in poor repair and probably not suitable to be listed. |
If the cabins are what I'm thinking of these are privately owned cabins on FS leased land while middle-aged aren't particularly historic -- but since they are on leased FS land, the FS has a due-diligence responsibility to have their historic value evaluated by the appropriate agency -- which is not the USFS. These aren't mining cabins from a century ago these are ski cabins that were built in conjunction with the development of the ski area in the '50s and '60s -- is "mid-century" historic now?
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contour5
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Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963 | TRs | Pics
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contour5
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:11 pm |
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| Quote: | | Stevens gets a lot of traffic and the parking lots can fill up. While they're waiting for a decision on expanding parking, the resort is trying to communicate with visitors about the conditions. They have a twitter account, @stevensupdates, that offers updates on the parking situation and road conditions. While they wait for a decision, Stevens is looking at options for encouraging carpooling and the use of public transit. |
Er, what public transit? The employee-only shuttle bus?
Providing shuttles or some kind of public transit ought to be a prerequisite for any sort of expansion or new permits...
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:17 pm |
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| contour5 wrote: | | Providing shuttles or some kind of public transit ought to be a prerequisite for any sort of expansion or new permits... |
You mean like the shuttle they ran last season?
| Quote: | | West Side Route from the Seattle area - Map Quest Route and Map
Luna Park Cafe/The Shack, West Seattle. Depart 6:15am
Renaissance Hotel, Downtown/Capitol Hill. Depart 6:30am
Hotel Deca, University District. Depart 6:45am
Fred Meyer Parking Lot, Lake City Way. Depart 7:00am
Albertsons Parking Lot, Monroe. Depart 7:45am
Arrive at Stevens Pass Mountain Resort at 9:00am
* Shuttle Departs Stevens Pass at 4:00pm *
Pricing for West Side Route:
$95 Includes lift ticket and round trip shuttle ride
$40 Round trip shuttle ride
$25 One-way shuttle ride
Check out the shuttle specials for the 2015 season
East Side Route from Leavenworth Area - Map Quest Route and Map
Highway 2/Route 97 Park and Ride, Peshastin. Depart 7:30am
Enzian Inn, Leavenworth. Depart 7:45am
Leavenworth Mountain Sports, Leavenworth. Depart 8:00am
59'er Diner, Coles Corner. Depart 8:15am
Arrive at Stevens Pass Mountain Resort at 9:00am
* Shuttle Departs Stevens Pass at 4:00pm *
Pricing for East Side Route:
$90 Includes lift ticket and round trip shuttle ride
$35 Round trip shuttle ride
$20 One-way shuttle ride
Checkout the shuttle specials for the 2015 season |
Stevens also runs shuttles between the old Yodelin parking lot and Steven's XC center lot so these lots provide overflow capacity on "big days".
The number of days per season that are "money makers" is suprisingly small (~20) So the ski area really doesn't want to have to "turn people away" on those big days.
Sometimes this makes me sad though -- for example the Snoqualmie Summit Nordic center used to be located near the "Silver Fir" base area and provided a nearly ideal teaching facility with a really nice progression of "lower trails" from nearly flat to quite steep. But the amount of money the nordic center brought in was modest -- so they moved the entire nordic center to Hyak / Summit East -- which is a far less effective teaching area -- and they converted the "lower trails" area into a large parking lot for the Alpine ski area and even more profitably for the "tubing" center.
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contour5
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Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 2963 | TRs | Pics
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contour5
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:33 pm |
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| Quote: | | You mean like the shuttle they ran last season? |
Ah. OK, cool. Thanks, RandyHiker!
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joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
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joker
seeker
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:45 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | old Yodelin parking lot and Steven's XC center lot so these lots provide overflow capacity on "big days". |
You mean most Saturdays or Sundays when the lifts are running?
If those cabins by the north lot get historic status we're going to be protecting chain link fences from the sixties next...
If they want to invest to upgrade within the existing footprint, that strikes me as a good thing. If they are going to increase overall parking capacity, perhaps they should help fund new roundabouts in Sultan at the notorious intersections that create the huge traffic backups. If that traffic issue can't be fixed, increasing vehicle capacity strikes me as a questionable deal for the public.
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NacMacFeegle
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 2653 | TRs | Pics
Location: United States |
| RandyHiker wrote: | | The Seattle times article that you linked is from 2009 and is about Steven's 2007 proposed expansion plan -- if what they are going forward with in 2015 is fixing up old lifts and building MTB tracks on existing ski runs it would seem that the more extensive 2007 plans haven't been approved by the USFS. Here is the 2015 USFS EA http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3855617.pdf |
Thanks for the link to the EA, couldn't find it when I searched for it.
The Times article mentioned that they are doing a "phased approach" to permitting the master plan:
| Quote: | | But the permitting method elected by the Forest Service to review the developer’s proposal is creating controversy.
Stevens Pass is the last of the major ski areas in the Seattle area to propose expansion — and the first the feds and developer propose to handle with a phased environmental analysis.
With both Crystal Mountain and the Summit at Snoqualmie, the Forest Service approved expansions and enhancements only after a full-blown environmental impact statement (EIS) of the complete master plan for the projects.
The analyses included a look at cumulative effects, alternatives to the proposed plans and mitigation to offset harm to the environment.
But under an approach new in the Northwest, the Forest Service this time wants to examine the master plan for Stevens under an abbreviated environmental assessment of only the first phase of the project. Other steps in the expansion would be examined as phases of the project progress. |
The conclusion I reached is that the current project is a phase of their master plan, and that their long term plan is to expand bit by bit so that they only have to do the permitting a bit of the time. That way it gets less negative press and the environmental assessment is easier to pass.
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:55 pm |
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| joker wrote: | | Sultan at the notorious intersections that create the huge traffic backups. I |
My least favorite part of skiing at Stevens is the drive home -- when the backup starts at Zeke's.... But HWY-2 gets backed up between Sultan to Monroe during weekday commutes from all the folks that live out there and commute into Redmond / Seattle for work.
I think is far past time for the WSDOT to improve capacity on HWY-2 between Sultan and Puget Sound City -- they only recently increased HWY-522 to four lanes over the Snohomish river -- something that should have been done at least 20 years ago, but the WSDOT is too busy converting I-405 into a tollway.
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