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Tom_Sjolseth
Born Yesterday
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 2652 | TRs | Pics
Location: Right here. |
| Tom_Sjolseth wrote: | | Stefan wrote: | | I kind of like this idea. But I would tack on $50 for a reservation....and if you pick up the reservation...then you get $30 back. It motivates people to be honest with the reservation system.
If no one shows up for the reservation by 10:00am then they lose their money...and the reservation can go to somebody in line at the ranger station. For free. |
How about if the permit cost a meager processing fee ($1.75). Enough to support the software (a few lines of code built into the existing web interface, then a payment link to pay.gov) and additional enforcement required for the system to function with integrity. For verification, how about if the permit buyer writes in a predetermined code at the trailhead register, issued by the computer system when a person buys the permit. NPS parking lot checkers come around and look for a matching code. If no matching code, then a ticket. That means the person at least went to the trailhead (which is more than can be said if the person picks up the permit in person at the ranger station). The downside is if you run out of gas on the way to the trailhead, the car breaks down, etc, you owe money. Upside is it's convenient, you don't have to go to the ranger station, you can leave at whatever time you want, it gives everyone a fair chance to get a permit for a given area, etc.
Another rough draft, but already far better than the proposed pilot. A trip to the ranger station (wasting gas, wasting time, causing late starts) should not be required in this day and age. A virtual trip is all you should need. |
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Tom
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Tom
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 Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:09 pm |
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Cost-effective on-line reservation system my arse. If reservations are non-refundable and need to be picked up in person then why not have recreation.gov process the reservation for chump change? No need to reinvent the wheel. And why do they need to hire non-seasonal staff to process reservations? The web server would processes reservations.
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huron
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Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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huron
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:53 pm |
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The justification given for permits is to limit access. The actual reason for permits is to justify enforcement which requires rangers. Ditto for pickup in person. Needs rangers and a station. Every solution needs a problem.
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
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Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
| BigBrunyon wrote: | | ITS GETTING TO BE TOO MUCH OF A HASSLE TO GO HIKIN THESE DAYS!!! |
That's one reason why I actually stopped hiking, when they began charging for TH passes in the mid to late 80's. They should be encouraging people t get out and hike, not the opposite. I agree with Spamfoote, there should be no charge to park and hike anywhere.
What, you say they need the money for maintenance, etc? Then why is that never enough, they always need more?
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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AlpineRose
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Aww cmon. Y'all didn't work your jobs for free. Why do you expect the maintainenace of access roads, parking lots, toilets, storm damage mitigation, garbage and general s**t removal, along with fighting the occasional stupid lawsuit...to be free.
Magical thinking, indeed. It might be fun to see it portrayed in movies. But in real life it's annoying at best and dangerous at worst. Check your calendar. The wild, wild West has been gone for a while.
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jackchinook
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Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 684 | TRs | Pics
Location: Winthrop |
| NOCA website says (link below) wrote: | | March 15 – March 31 – Lottery processing. All requests received between March 15 and March 31 receive the same priority level and will be processed in random order. Park rangers begin to process reservations on April 1. |
| NOCA website says (same page) wrote: | | There is a $20 non-refundable application cost recovery fee for each application request submitted. If the backcountry staff is unable to award an advance reservation itinerary based upon the parameters requested in the application, the $20 fee is not refundable. The application form allows for alternative dates and locations to ensure a successful trip request. Consider all potential trip options and list these on the application. |
So let me get this straight - I can get my application in at 7am on March 15, pay them $20, and for 2 more weeks NPS can accept $20 from each additional party who will subsequently compete equally with me for campsites in the same area!?!??! And they can take the $20 application fee from all of us, regardless of how many receive permits?
Who comes up with this stuff?
I don't dispute that there's a need for a reservation system. I can sympathize for those who object to the principle of fees for these permits but I'd be willing to do pay to have the convenience of longer-term planning (really, permits should be free w/deposit, thus a no-show fee).
But this nonsense of an application fee where everyone pays, regardless of where you "win" a permit in their 2-week lottery system couldn't have been more poorly concieved.
NPS link
https://www.nps.gov/noca/planyourvisit/backcountry-reservations.htm
(edited to fix a misread about timeframe of lottery period)
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drm
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Location: The Dalles, OR |
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drm
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Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:16 am |
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| jackchinook wrote: | | But this nonsense of an application fee where everyone pays, regardless of where you "win" a permit in their 2-month lottery system couldn't have been more poorly concieved. |
I agree. I just sent this to their email contact for backcountry stuff:
| Quote: | | A $20 NON_REFUNDABLE fee to get a permit? How ridiculous. I think I will try to organize a boycott. |
While I'm guessing that lot's of people will decline to participate in a system with a $20 nonrefundable fee (though some may not read the details and get shocked), I would suggest that publicly saying - maybe right here - that you refuse to do so, might send a better message. If enough people post agreement, maybe somebody can send it to a reporter!
Btw, they are calling this a "pilot program" which suggests to me that we can nip this thing in the bud before other parks join in. I'm fine with sticking with same-day permits only if they can't manage an advance registration system on better terms than that.
They still will have 40% of permits available for same-day permits, but that's a lot less than it used to be.
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Sounds like a really stupid customer unfriendly system. At Yosemite they only charge if you get the permit. Other NP use recreation.gov and it is better than this.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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olderthanIusedtobe
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Location: Shoreline |
| drm wrote: | | Btw, they are calling this a "pilot program" which suggests to me that we can nip this thing in the bud before other parks join in |
The NW Forest Pass was a "pilot program" too. That certainly didn't get nipped in the bud and I believe it was only a pilot program for 1 year before we got permanently stuck with it.
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drm
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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Location: The Dalles, OR |
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drm
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Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:43 am |
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| olderthanIusedtobe wrote: | | drm wrote: | | Btw, they are calling this a "pilot program" which suggests to me that we can nip this thing in the bud before other parks join in |
The NW Forest Pass was a "pilot program" too. That certainly didn't get nipped in the bud and I believe it was only a pilot program for 1 year before we got permanently stuck with it. |
Not a good comparison in my opinion. I know it is not that popular but you get something for it. At least in my area those funds are critical to maintaining the resource. A nonrefundable fee is another thing entirely.
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olderthanIusedtobe
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It may be different circumstances, but my point was that once a government agency acquires a revenue stream, they are not likely to let go of it.
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drm
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Location: The Dalles, OR |
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drm
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Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:35 pm |
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If usage is very low, then it won't be much of a revenue stream.
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Foist
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Joined: 08 May 2006
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Location: Back! |
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Foist
Sultan of Sweat
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Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:17 pm |
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| jackchinook wrote: | | So let me get this straight - I can get my application in at 7am on March 15, pay them $20, and for 2 more weeks NPS can accept $20 from each additional party who will subsequently compete equally with me for campsites in the same area!?!??! And they can take the $20 application fee from all of us, regardless of how many receive permits?
Who comes up with this stuff? |
Totally agree. I was defending the system before, but I hadn't picked up on the fact that it was nonrefundable even if you get no permit at all. That's totally unjustifiable.
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HitTheTrail
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Joined: 30 Oct 2007
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Location: 509 |
| drm wrote: | | I know it is not that popular but you get something for it. At least in my area those funds are critical to maintaining the resource...... |
When funds do get allocated for trails it seems like first priority are improvements to the TH area with a toilet and picnic table so it qualifies as a fee area. Actual clearing of trails often gets the short end of the stick.
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drm
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Location: The Dalles, OR |
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drm
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Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:29 pm |
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| HitTheTrail wrote: | | When funds do get allocated for trails it seems like first priority are improvements to the TH area with a toilet and picnic table so it qualifies as a fee area. Actual clearing of trails often gets the short end of the stick. |
A lot of the people who pay for the pass only use those trailhead facilities and surveys indicate for many that toilets are a high priority for them, so that's only fair. Allocations can vary in different areas but I know that it helps to pay for actual trail maintenance in the Mt Adams District where I do wilderness steward volunteer work.
NWFP aside (that's not what this post was about) I like NOCA NP a lot but if I go this year I will not get an advance permit.
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