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Chico
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PostSun Feb 12, 2017 2:51 am 
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CC wrote:
Coming up:  treeswarper explains how the burning of slash piles actually helps cleanse the atmosphere.

What? You mean you don't know how that works? Come on. We learned that in kindergarten.

It works like this. All that ash and smoke particles rise up in the air. Moisture grabs on to the point where the particle now surrounded by water becomes too heavy so falls to the ground. On the way down the droplets pick up even more particles out of the air thus cleansing it.
smile.gif

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Humptulips
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PostTue Feb 14, 2017 6:07 pm 
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I did a little quick web browsing and it appears that DNR takes in a little over $1.5 million a year from recreation (Discover Pass). Logging and leasing land brings about $250 million annually. That is really a ballpark figure as it goes up and down a lot depending on stumpage prices.
The fallacy of recreation dollars is it doesn't bring any money to the land holders. All nice and fine to talk about restaurants and lodging but it is hard to directly connect them with that Park.
Are you willing to foot the bill to stop logging? I bet you could do it if you could pony up the money to replace the timber revenue.

Myself, I enjoy walking the old logging roads after it has growed back a bit. Much more then your typical park trail. Less crowded at least. I don't see a downside
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NacMacFeegle
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PostWed Feb 15, 2017 12:44 am 
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Humptulips wrote:
I did a little quick web browsing and it appears that DNR takes in a little over $1.5 million a year from recreation (Discover Pass). Logging and leasing land brings about $250 million annually. That is really a ballpark figure as it goes up and down a lot depending on stumpage prices.

Outdoor recreation generates 22.5 Billion in consumer spending in Washingtonhttps://outdoorindustry.org/images/ore_reports/WA-washington-outdoorrecreationeconomy-oia.pdf Dedicating so much of state land almost entirely to logging decreases the potential growth of the outdoor recreation economy, and considerable tax revenue is lost as a result.

Humptulips wrote:
The fallacy of recreation dollars is it doesn't bring any money to the land holders.

It would if funds from taxes were allocated to land management proportionate to the value of the recreation economy that public land supports.

Humptulips wrote:
Are you willing to foot the bill to stop logging? I bet you could do it if you could pony up the money to replace the timber revenue.

Yes, and we should - the economic and environmental benefits of restoring and preserving natural forests outweigh the costs.

Humptulips wrote:
Myself, I enjoy walking the old logging roads after it has growed back a bit. Much more then your typical park trail. Less crowded at least. I don't see a downside

Old logging roads are only at all pleasant if the replanted forest is natural and not a commercial wasteland, and has had at least 50 years to recover. Also, part of the reason trails are becoming increasingly overcrowded is due to so much land being locked up by private and state forests to be almost exclusively used for intensive logging.

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trestle
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PostWed Feb 15, 2017 5:50 am 
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I'm trying to imagine a committee consisting of tree and NacMac and then I remember that it already exists, albeit in a much larger form.  wink.gif

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Sore Feet
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PostWed Feb 15, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Here's a map of the plots of land in question.  It's not in the park, it's most likely not going to be visible from any of the trails in the park, and it's not going to affect the trails in the park because any roads used to access the area will come from the south or east.  Seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot situation to me.

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treeswarper
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PostFri Feb 17, 2017 7:02 am 
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NacMacFeegle wrote:
Outdoor recreation generates 22.5 Billion in consumer spending in Washingtonhttps://outdoorindustry.org/images/ore_reports/WA-washington-outdoorrecreationeconomy-oia.pdf Dedicating so much of state land almost entirely to logging decreases the potential growth of the outdoor recreation economy, and considerable tax revenue is lost as a result.

You are adding all lands to your equation.   I'll see if I can find out how much timber revenue is for ALL the timberlands in the state.  That includes private and federal lands.  Do we include the salaries of tree planters, thinning crews, brush pilers, road builders? 
What was included in the recreation dollar figures?  The business at the mini-mart?  The coffee stop?   

Oh, and the mills and end products?  There's more to it than just a log going down the road.

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treeswarper
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PostFri Feb 17, 2017 7:23 am 
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According to this This
timber lands grossed 16 billion dollars in 2005.  Wages were 2 billion.

Note the graph on page 27.  The downward trend was when the recession kicked in.  More recent work might show that on the rise again, but I need to get going and go walk a nearby logging road. up.gif

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NacMacFeegle
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PostFri Feb 17, 2017 9:59 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
timber lands grossed 16 billion dollars in 2005.  Wages were 2 billion.

So about 2/3 the size of the $22.5 billion recreation industry - if all the forest land dedicated solely to commercial forestry were used instead for recreation it's not unreasonable to think that the recreation industry would add another $16 billion per year eventually.

It's also important to note that the benefits of using land for recreation rather than resource extraction far exceed the money from the recreation industry. Clean air, water, and healthy ecosystems are important for everyone, and natural forests sequester more carbon.

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Humptulips
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PostFri Feb 17, 2017 5:15 pm 
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By that logic we should just shut down every business in WA except those that are recreation related. In fact why stop there, let's do it nationwide.
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treeswarper
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PostSat Feb 18, 2017 1:30 pm 
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NacMacFeegle wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
timber lands grossed 16 billion dollars in 2005.  Wages were 2 billion.

So about 2/3 the size of the $22.5 billion recreation industry - if all the forest land dedicated solely to commercial forestry were used instead for recreation it's not unreasonable to think that the recreation industry would add another $16 billion per year eventually.

It's also important to note that the benefits of using land for recreation rather than resource extraction far exceed the money from the recreation industry. Clean air, water, and healthy ecosystems are important for everyone, and natural forests sequester more carbon.

Well, using your logic that carbon is a problem, I would suggest that recreation is not a green industry.  You drive to the trailhead in an oil using car, which is made from minerals that have actually been "extracted"--can't plant steel back.  There are plastic parts which means you are using oil, which has been extracted.  You don't buy much locally other than maybe a coffee or a burger and more oil based fuel.  You poop at the trailhead and in the woods and I bet you don't all wipe with moss...that would be paper being used.  You require trails to be maintained, which means oil using equipment is used in the non-wilderness and tools made from extracted minerals are used elsewhere.  And the final bit, recreation pays like a dollar nighty eight an hour, until the voted in minimum wage goes up.  Then, a kid or adult without much experience can make a good wage, except prices will rise or employees laid off to adjust for that higher wage. 

I agree with Humptulips.  If you are worried about carbon, clean air and water you'd best shut down everything.  Timber harvesting is but a fraction of that.  At the moment, you ought to be whining loudly and demanding Seattle be shut down.  They are polluting the sound, right?  Where is your outrage?   embarassedlaugh.gif

Oh, B&M Logging still is hiring if you'd like to learn what actually goes on.

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ale_capone
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PostMon Feb 20, 2017 4:30 am 
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I've thought about working in the logging industry, but it just looks like too much work. I'm too old for all that. Maybe operating a machine, but running up and down steep inclines, bushwhacking all day.. no thanks.

Boys where up there tooting the air horn in the pouring rain last week. Tough guys.


I've hiked nearly every cut in the Reiter foothills(with my brown dog).  I've noticed there is actually a recreational upside. There has been a slight boom in the gold bar bouldering scene. Always been known to have boulders, but good luck shwacking through and finding them. Now they stick out, and have easy walk up access. A sunny winter weekend day has Reiter road pretty packed with mat carriers...

Before that, it was pretty much the off road free for all... Not much 4x4 action anymore
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Dalekz
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PostThu Feb 23, 2017 10:53 am 
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According to the Everett Herald a last minute agreement was put into place and sets aside the 25 acres from planned DNR timber auction that was scheduled to be cut.

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/agreement-sets-aside-25-acres-from-planned-dnr-timber-auction/
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Ski
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PostSat Feb 25, 2017 1:46 pm 
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trestle wrote:
I assume then you're willing to pay a significant increase in property tax.

haha!
thanks for the laugh, trestle. that really is pretty funny. up.gif

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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trestle
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PostSun Feb 26, 2017 12:42 pm 
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Glad to help Ski  up.gif

I love how Mac assumes tax increases will all be paid by corporations and not passed on to consumers. It's called capitalism, young man, but I appreciate your passion.

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Klapton
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PostSun Feb 26, 2017 1:51 pm 
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trestle wrote:
Glad to help Ski  up.gif

I love how Mac assumes tax increases will all be paid by corporations and not passed on to consumers. It's called capitalism, young man, but I appreciate your passion.

I'm looking forward to produce from Mexico costing more so "they" can pay to build a big wall.
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