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timberghost
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timberghost
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 6:09 am 
Wilderness definition in there stating untrammeled by man. There are many old logging roads within the Wild Sky which violate this statement in the Wilderness definition. untrammeled meaning the forces of nature operate unrestrained and unaltered.

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Randito
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 6:37 am 
timberghost wrote:
Wilderness definition in there stating untrammeled by man. There are many old logging roads within the Wild Sky which violate this statement in the Wilderness definition. untrammeled meaning the forces of nature operate unrestrained and unaltered.
Lookup the definition of untrammeled, it may not mean what you think. It definitely doesn't mean untrampled, a common misconception. Also Congress knew that some portions of Wild Sky contained old roads that have been closed / neglected to become trails when the bill creating wild sky was passed. That doesn't change the wilderness act rules.

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timberghost
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 7:01 am 
That definition was taken from the wilderness act. Many of the objections to Wild Sky were stated because it didn't fit this right wrong or indifferent.

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Randito
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 7:38 am 
timberghost wrote:
That definition was taken from the wilderness act. Many of the objections to Wild Sky were stated because it didn't fit this right wrong or indifferent.
???
Quote:
DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS (c) A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.
In terms of "untrammeled by man" it seems to me that allowing chainsaws make the goal of "untrammeled by man" harder to achieve. Trails or old roads that are now trails both allow easier access. Personally I think the borders chosen for Wild Sky make more sense than approach used for the Alpine Lakes where long swaths of Valley floor either side of a crummy road left out, many of those roads are now trails (e.g. the Taylor River Road is now a trail, the MF Snoqualmie is rapidly becoming a trail) Long term I think it would have been better to have drawn the borders lower down and closed the road right away.

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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 2:13 pm 
timberghost wrote:
That definition was taken from the wilderness act.
yeah... ??? The definition of "untrammeled" is the definition you will find in an orthodox dictionary of the English language, printed in book form. There are no other definitions, and federal legislation does not change, alter, or redefine definitions of terms of the English language.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 4:21 pm 
Wrong words in statutes are defined by legislatures and Courts all the time.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 4:23 pm 
The definition of "untrammeled" is the definition you will find in an orthodox dictionary of the English language, printed in book form. There are no other definitions, and federal legislation does not change, alter, or redefine definitions of terms of the English language.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 4:44 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
Wrong words in statutes are defined by legislatures and Courts all the time.
That is true in general, but not in this case. Howard Zahniser made 56 revisions over a decade in writing the text of the Wilderness Act. The choice of untrammeled was given much thought and debate.

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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 5:07 pm 
If it is in the Act it is defined by the legislature. Courts can redefine words and do all the time, example: all dictionaries define comprise as consist and consist as comprise, but in a patent they have very different meanings.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Randito
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 5:49 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
If it is in the Act it is defined by the legislature. Courts can redefine words and do all the time, example: all dictionaries define comprise as consist and consist as comprise, but in a patent they have very different meanings.
I think using patent law examples is not a great choice -- there is an entire "industry" built around exploiting weaknesses in the patent law as it currently exists. A *HUGE* percentage of patent law cases in the USA are filed in Marshall County Texas -- a county with a population of just 24,000 and a much lower than US average high school graduation rate. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/business/24ward.html In a case I was involved in -- once the defendants had the venue changed away from Marshall County to San Francisco -- where the jury pool has a lot more tech savvy people -- the plaintiffs settled very quickly and for a minute fraction of their original claim of damages. In any case -- on the issue of whether chainsaws *CAN* be used within a wilderness area -- the law has already been made clear by court cases -- They can, but only after the land managers go through a process to document that chainsaws are part of the "minimum tools needed to administer the area". This thread is all about whether the rules should be changed to allow chainsaws to be used without going through the analysis required by both the Wilderness Act and the National Environmental Policy Act. Personally I think that is a bad idea on several fronts, not the least of which is that -- unless congress passed specific legislation allowing this -- the USFS or other land managers attempt such a change in process would certainly be sued by Wilderness Watch, the Sierra Club, etc and as the law has been interpreted by the courts previously -- they plaintiffs would be in a very good position to prevail.

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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 6:20 pm 
Wow talk about thread drift hockeygrin.gif I am intimately familiar with the Eastern District of Texas and have both visited and litegated there. It is popular not because the people there are rubes but because the Courts there have created a fast track system that hears cases years faster than the Northern District of California. The Judges there are very familiar with patent law and have special local rules it is a specialty court and is often preferred by both defendants and plaintiffs who prefer a speedy resolution. As to the issue we are supposed to be talking about I do not have a strong position. The current rule seems to be working fine and there is little reason to change. In the current political climate I am wary of any change that could reduce environmental protection, slippery slope argument. Today chainsaws tomorrow ATV's and sleds tongue.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Randito
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 6:26 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
As to the issue we are supposed to be talking about I do not have a strong position. The current rule seems to be working fine and there is little reason to change. In the current political climate I am wary of any change that could reduce environmental protection, slippery slope argument. Today chainsaws tomorrow ATV's and sleds tongue.gif
I concur -- I don't trust either the current administration or the current congress to fiddle with the wilderness act or the National Environmental Policy Act -- in rough form they seem more interested exploiting natural resources than protecting them for future generations.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 9:45 pm 
This argument, and cockroaches, will be all that's left of earth in the end.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 10:11 pm 
The guy who insisted two members of this forum are paid by outside interests for posting on this site wrote:
"Courts can redefine words and do all the time..."
No, they don't. Perhaps terms are defined within the limitations of the particular statute in which they are used, but courts and legislatures do not redefine the established definitions of standard terms in the English language. (Usually set forth in the front end of bills under "definitions".) You're talking apples and oranges. Sorry you're confused (again.)

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 10:29 pm 
Sorry, you are wrong courts define words and phrases all the time along with statutory intent. You start by attacking me personally. I said that the persistent of the brown commenters in the stewardship forum can only be explained by their being trolls or sock puppets. The definition of sock puppet does not require monetary payment only that they are promoting an industry or point of view while representing themselves as something else i.e. A hiker. Ad hom attacks have no place here. Blocked because of the inevitable PMs to follow.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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