Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Grizzly Bear Restoration in North Cascades
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Bedivere
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Bedivere
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PostThu Mar 23, 2017 7:54 pm 
Mississippiwaffle wrote:
The griz belongs. You? Not so much.
Nice first post. I submit that I and my fellow human beings "belong" to this planet and it's ecosystems as much as any other animal. I can accept (though not agree with) the argument that the Grizzly "belongs" there, they were there at one point 'til man wiped them out, but to say that people don't belong is just a bunch of self loathing and guilt mongering. By that logic we should all move back to Africa and leave the rest of the world as wild as it was before the earliest humans migrated. As to your other points, you might as well try to justify grizzly maulings by pointing out the danger from drunk drivers... That's called a straw man.

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Mississippiwaffle
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 9:14 am 
Bedivere wrote:
Mississippiwaffle wrote:
The griz belongs. You? Not so much.
Nice first post. I submit that I and my fellow human beings "belong" to this planet and it's ecosystems as much as any other animal. I can accept (though not agree with) the argument that the Grizzly "belongs" there, they were there at one point 'til man wiped them out, but to say that people don't belong is just a bunch of self loathing and guilt mongering. By that logic we should all move back to Africa and leave the rest of the world as wild as it was before the earliest humans migrated. As to your other points, you might as well try to justify grizzly maulings by pointing out the danger from drunk drivers... That's called a straw man.
The wilderness is the home of wild animals. Your home is in the city. I am not saying you should not visit, but you are a visitor. It is not your home. As for strawman, why should we not attempt to right the wrong we did by killing off the bears because there might be a mauling when in places where there are griz bears, people are still way more likely to die in the normal, non bear ways people die in the wilderness, mostly falls? And most bear maulings, like other incidents that happen in the wilderness are caused by people doing stupid sh##. Why are we more worried about being mauled by a bear than all the other, more likely things that could kill us in the wilderness?

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Chico
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 11:00 am 
Mississippiwaffle wrote:
I submit that I and my fellow human beings "belong" to this planet and it's ecosystems as much as any other animal.
Talk to those who are living on the edge of their "proposed" range and see what their thoughts are. You in the middle of your city are insulated.

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Mississippiwaffle
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 11:23 am 
Chico wrote:
Mississippiwaffle wrote:
I submit that I and my fellow human beings "belong" to this planet and it's ecosystems as much as any other animal.
Talk to those who are living on the edge of their "proposed" range and see what their thoughts are. You in the middle of your city are insulated.
Talk to? Lots of people selfishly think that they are more important than anything else. Lots of people would kill/harm/steal from anyone or anything for their benefit if they could do it in a socially accepted way. This should be obvious as it is why there are currently no (or only rarely a few) griz in the north cascades right now. If you choose to live on the edge of wilderness, wilderness will sometimes visit you.

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Ski
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 12:20 pm 
Mississippiwaffle wrote:
And most bear maulings, like other incidents that happen in the wilderness are caused by people doing stupid sh##.
Please provide your citations for that statement. I've read the reports of the more recent deaths caused by bears in Yellowstone and the people who were killed were certainly not engaged in any activities that could be construed as being "doing stupid sh##."
Mississippiwaffle wrote:
Lots of people selfishly think that they are more important than anything else.
Yeah, that's true as a general rule. Are you suggesting that bears are more important than humans?

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom_Sjolseth
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 12:31 pm 
Mississippi's illogical arguments might seem less asinine if they weren't launched under the veil of anonymity. Probably a regular member here too ashamed to share these thoughts using their own name. I think this alternative A gets implemented unanimously.

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Mississippiwaffle
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 12:35 pm 
Ski wrote:
Are you suggesting that bears are more important than humans?
More important than humans, as in a human does not have a right to defend themselves? Absolutely not. More important than humans as in a bears right to exist in its natural habitat supersedes human's desire to recreate in that habitat? yes.

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Ski
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 12:56 pm 
^ Well, I'm happy for you that you're seemingly so convinced about your opinion. I doubt everyone is going to be in agreement with you on that point, however, because those public lands are public lands, set aside for the use and enjoyment of the people. The National Forest Service and the National Park Service were not created with the intent to create wildlife refuges. I think you may be a little confused about the intent and purpose of federally managed public lands.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom
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PostFri Mar 24, 2017 1:11 pm 
Tom_Sjolseth wrote:
Mississippi's illogical arguments might seem less asinine if they weren't launched under the veil of anonymity. Probably a regular member here too ashamed to share these thoughts using their own name.
Actually, a member whose posting privileges were disabled until they could re-commit to the posting terms. I guess they don't want to come back.

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drm
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PostWed Mar 29, 2017 9:15 am 
I'm going to agree with Miss that in wilderness areas, wild animals should have a greater right to live than those of us who visit. We all have the right to breathe the air and live, but we are the ones who have compressed the wild lands available for most animals to live in by an enormous degree, except for those animals that thrive among us (most of which we hate, funny that - referring to rats, pigeons, and cockroaches, etc). The thing is that the bears are already returning on their own. There apparently is an adequate migration route from them from regions where their populations are still healthy. It seems to me that almost everybody here (on nwhikers.net) who is opposed to us humans bringing them in wants to let them come on their own and be protected (and I'm not sure if that is true for people living next door). So if they are coming in on their own, let them continue to do so. Let them self-select the individuals who want to migrate to a new area. It will be a healthier and more natural process in the sense of the ecological impact. And if the threat of a mauling or death worries you, go recreate (or live) somewhere else. There are plenty of tame but pretty places to visit if that fits your needs.

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RumiDude
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PostWed Mar 29, 2017 9:29 am 
It is interesting reading the reasoning and attitudes about the grizzly reintroduction compared to that surrounding the Big Four Ice Caves and other similar things. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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treeswarper
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PostWed Mar 29, 2017 10:09 am 
drm wrote:
I'm going to agree with Miss that in wilderness areas, wild animals should have a greater right to live than those of us who visit. We all have the right to breathe the air and live, but we are the ones who have compressed the wild lands available for most animals to live in by an enormous degree, except for those animals that thrive among us (most of which we hate, funny that - referring to rats, pigeons, and cockroaches, etc). The thing is that the bears are already returning on their own. There apparently is an adequate migration route from them from regions where their populations are still healthy. It seems to me that almost everybody here (on nwhikers.net) who is opposed to us humans bringing them in wants to let them come on their own and be protected (and I'm not sure if that is true for people living next door). So if they are coming in on their own, let them continue to do so. Let them self-select the individuals who want to migrate to a new area. It will be a healthier and more natural process in the sense of the ecological impact. And if the threat of a mauling or death worries you, go recreate (or live) somewhere else. There are plenty of tame but pretty places to visit if that fits your needs.
From letters to the editor, and comments in newspapers, I'd say that the people who live next door to the area favor just leaving things alone and if the bears move in on their own, fine. Many, and I are one, think that there are more bears than the experts find evidence of. It's a big area to "study". The other opinion frequently expressed is if bears are imported, dump them in the Puget Sound Area. And, lest you think I am merely insulting the "city people" I am reporting what I read.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Dave Workman
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PostWed Mar 29, 2017 7:26 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
The other opinion frequently expressed is if bears are imported, dump them in the Puget Sound Area. And, lest you think I am merely insulting the "city people" I am reporting what I read.
I've read that here and there also. It was the same with wolf reintroduction. A lot of people suspect some of the wolves now in Washington had help getting here. It's amusing and disappointing at the same time that some people who favor this reintroduction have a sneering attitude about ranchers and farmers who actually live in or near the areas. Learn to understand that the rancher has it all on the line. Raising cattle, on private or public land, can be a gamble, and it does nobody any good to simply dismiss their concerns as subordinate to your own. Frankly, I have seen some people panic about the proximity of coyotes and even a bear or two in an urban residential environment. Suddenly, it's not somebody else's problem anymore. TS, amend your suggestion. Dump them in the Puget Sound area...hungry. They will quickly wear out their welcome. winksmile.gif

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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treeswarper
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PostFri Mar 31, 2017 6:10 pm 
Dave Workman wrote:
TS, amend your suggestion. Dump them in the Puget Sound area...hungry. They will quickly wear out their welcome. :winksmile
I'd love to. It would be part of the Friends Of Seattle restoration plan. But first we have to decommission I-5, other paved roads and the parking lots because we have to restore Seattle to pre-European settlement conditions. Tribes of the area need to take charge. Gotta get the vegetation restored and then bring in all the animals that used to inhabit the area.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Ski
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PostFri Mar 31, 2017 6:40 pm 
^ Don't forget that you'll need to install bear-proof garbage receptacles everywhere too, like they have in downtown Juneau. Because you know.... we don't have anything better to waste tax dollars on right now.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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