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MtnGoat
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PostThu Apr 20, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
I wasn't referring to my use of words. The attempt to present HR621 as some kind of idyllic repatriation of land to the people is exactly what I was referring to. HR621 was motivated by nothing less than greed.

I don't recall making an attempt to present HR261 as any such thing, if you're referencing my arguments.

I'd argue greed is a human constant, displayed by every human in pursuit of values which they value for purely personal reasons. A personal valuation of some good... for other people, or for yourself, or for whomever, is still personal.

So from my perspective, you're merely saying HR261 was motivated by nothing less than normal human motivations shared by all.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Apr 20, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Ski wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
They're the American public too, and they *live* there.

This disdain from a distance is exactly why people support him.

They're the "American public too" because they made some concessions in order to be admitted into the Union, and in doing so agreed to play by the same rules as the rest of the states.
What that means is that 121 years later, they don't get to decide at this point that they should be entitled to act autonomously and just "do their own thing", whether that means spinning off federally-held real estate or going back to polygamous marriages.
If they wanted autonomy, they should have made that determination a long time ago.

The bottom line being that I don't really give a rip about what the "locals" want when it comes to spinning off federally-owned real estate; it doesn't belong to them exclusively. Get over it already.

Not sure where you're getting "disdain" from - no clue how you conjured that up out of anything I posted here in this thread.

(* edited for clarity 12:58 PDT)

No one has argued for not playing by the same rules. After all....the HR process is, in fact, playing by the very rules you seemed to think needed re-elaboration for some reason.

See the bolded portion for another example of the "disdain from a distance" I alluded to in the first place. You simply don't give a rip what people who actually live near what you want controlled, want. If this isn't disdain, I don't know what is. You don't care what they want, you explicitly and specifically state that... and that's disdain if nothing else.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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fairweather friend
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PostThu Apr 20, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Now the rumor is that Chaffetz will resign by Friday.

Quote:
Republican officials in Utah expect Rep. Jason Chaffetz to step down from Congress, possibly as early as Friday, and were in the early stages of preparing for a special election to fill his 3rd district seat.

Washington Examiner Link

Sure doesn't seem like "business as usual," does it?  I can't wait to find out what's behind this.

One thing to remember in this discussion about Chaffetz's bill to dispose of public lands:  it's just one part of a concerted effort to weaken the public's hold on their land.  There was also the bill to prevent Forest Service employees from enforcing the law on public lands and another bill (that I think actually passed) that prevents the public from giving input on rule-making changes to public lands.  It's all part of a coordinated attack by ALEC, an organization funded by the Koch brothers in Oklahoma, not the residents in UT-03.
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Dave Workman
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PostThu Apr 20, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Well, that didn't last long for you, did it?  rolleyes.gif  lol.gif  lol.gif Hey, as long as you get to say and see what you want, right? Gee, I wonder what topics you might have agreed with Chaffetz on. Ignoring it is how we ended up here, btw. The no politics rule should not apply in light of the current administration.

Why should the rule not apply to the current admin?

As for saying and seeing what I want...I haven't said a thing since the first page. You, on the other hand, have been rather busy.

BTW, just what is it you *think* I might agree with Chaffetz about?

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"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
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Tom
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PostThu Apr 20, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Politics is fine in stewardship as long as it is outdoor related.  The current administration has provided more to discuss in that regard, for sure.
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Doppelganger
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PostFri Apr 21, 2017 7:37 am 
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Dave Workman wrote:
BTW, just what is it you *think* I might agree with Chaffetz about?

Not retirement unfortunately wink.gif  If your memory is flagging on your stance: some help for you.
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drm
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PostFri Apr 21, 2017 8:16 am 
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fairweather friend wrote:
Now the rumor is that Chaffetz will resign by Friday.

With this, almost nobody following it believes he simply wants to be at home more. While some wonder if there is a hidden scandal about to break, remember that Chaffetz was one of the Republicans who withdrew his endorsement of Trump after that tape came out, and then re-endorsed when they saw that Trump supporters didn't care. So it's possible that he simply doesn't like Trump and sees a completely dysfunctional and incompetent Republican government that he doesn't want to waste time on. And a Republican government that does not seem that interested in giving land back to states, as both Trump and Zinke have stated. It would make complete sense for a Utahn tired of dysfunction in WDC to decide to move eventually to Utah state government. Whatever it's ideology, it is fairly functional as things go these days.
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trestle
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PostFri Apr 21, 2017 8:56 am 
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Greed is not a human constant, more like a human condition. Were it a constant, our world would likely have already ended.

Chaffetz will likely become a uranium extraction lobbyist and he will probably have the Prez sign him a secret executive order so he can bypass the waiting period and go to work right away.

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fairweather friend
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PostFri Apr 21, 2017 9:10 am 
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I agree with your comments about Utah's state government.  They certainly don't share my views regarding well, many things, but at least the government functions... unlike Kansas and many states in the South.

What concerns me the most about congressional bills like the '"land disposal" bill introduced by Chaffetz is that Congress seems completely unconcerned with public input and polling data.  For example, the bill (now law) that allows internet companies to sell your search history and browsing history was universally disliked by the public.  72% of Democrats opposed the bill, but it was also opposed by 72% of Republicans, too.  Subtract out the useless "No Opinion" types and there was essentially no support for this bill by the public whatsoever.  No matter.  The Republican majority in the House passed the bill.  The Republican majority in the Senate passed the bill.  And President Trump signed the bill.  Done.  Done.  And Done!

Congressional Republicans no longer care what the public wants, even their own constituents, they only want to please their big donors.  That's what matters most.  This is why I am still concerned about these bills attacking public lands.  Even though they are opposed by Democrats and Republicans alike, they still might get passed into law.
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Apr 21, 2017 10:01 am 
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One reason Utah state government seems to work is the influence of the LDS church. The state is the descendant of a socialist theocracy. Say what you will about them but they take care of their own. This aleaviates much of the pressure for social welfare in many ways.

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Dave Workman
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PostFri Apr 21, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Dave Workman wrote:
BTW, just what is it you *think* I might agree with Chaffetz about?

Not retirement unfortunately wink.gif  If your memory is flagging on your stance: some help for you.

So, you link to a bunch of stuff I've written, and one thing that was written about me recently in Forbes.  So what?

I thought we were talking about public land, not what I do for a living.

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"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer." - D.H. Lawrence
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treeswarper
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PostSun Apr 23, 2017 1:47 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
They're the American public too, and they *live* there.

This disdain from a distance is exactly why people support him.

That's it in a nut shell.

If you don't live in a small community surrounded by federal land, it can be hard to understand.
Seeing more and more restrictions placed on land that is kind of your backyard, and placed there by people who are not local, who don't even go there, and care only about emotions and votes, can lead to extremism going the other way.

If you've never lived there, you won't understand or most likely won't even try.  And no, I am not in favor of selling off lands, unless there is a good reason, but I do understand where part of the sentiment comes from.  I do wish the pendulum would even out a bit.  Maybe some access would even be "restored".

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Kim Brown
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PostSun Apr 23, 2017 11:12 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
If you don't live in a small community surrounded by federal land, it can be hard to understand.

It's my land too. I have a say.

City dwellers most certainly do know what it's like to live with a lot of laws and regulations.
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treeswarper
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PostMon Apr 24, 2017 6:58 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
If you don't live in a small community surrounded by federal land, it can be hard to understand.

It's my land too. I have a say.

City dwellers most certainly do know what it's like to live with a lot of laws and regulations.

Yes, and you certainly don't understand or know the small ecosystems like some locals do.  Yes, you have a say and cuz there's more of you voters that don't know the land, you get to have all the say.  Understand yet?

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Seventy2002
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PostMon Apr 24, 2017 9:13 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
If you don't live in a small community surrounded by federal land, it can be hard to understand.
Seeing more and more restrictions placed on land that is kind of your backyard,

Help me understand. Give me examples of "more and more restrictions."
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