Forum Index > Stewardship > Mountain Goat Management Plan Olympic National PARK 07/24/17
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Humptulips
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Humptulips
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PostTue Aug 08, 2017 5:04 pm 
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trestle wrote:
The government has made NO efforts to exterminate goats in the last 20 years. Their population has exploded and has caused multiple impacts. It's far more than an emotional issue.

Not exactly true. As mentioned above there was an effort in the "80s to exterminate the goats starting with removals and ending with aerial shooting. They did knock the population down but since it has rebuilt.
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Gregory
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PostWed Aug 09, 2017 3:24 am 
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trestle wrote:
The government has made NO efforts to exterminate goats in the last 20 years. Their population has exploded and has caused multiple impacts. It's far more than an emotional issue.

Thanks for the giggle.I know that this problem was identified long before Al Gore invented the internet and I think predates the electronic Pager.I think my point flew a little too high.

I vaguely remember the first attempt.They stopped when they ran out of money.I can almost see the front page of the then Bremerton sun covering it.The Bremerton sun is a news paper.

edit; The first budget to get rid of the goats was 1.3 million if memory serves me right.they did their thing until they could not afford helicopter fuel and whiskey for a professional hunter.They talked about opening it up for a general season to finish them off but alas here we are almost thirty years later studying.................
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trestle
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PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:10 am 
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^ Patronize all you want but it doesn't prove your point. Your anecdotes are adorable but there was more to it. Helicopters were actually considered the cheaper part of the cost. The facts of the operation are presented here:  NPS: Mountain Goat Management in Olympic National Park

Quote:
The capture operation scheduled for 1990 was canceled by the superintendent of Olympic National Park when two independent assessments indicated that continued efforts posed unacceptable risks to the capture team (Machlis et al. 1990; Peterson 1990). Moreover, a full environmental impact statement, rather than a less comprehensive environmental assessment, was judged necessary to continue with the removal program primarily because of the expected controversy surrounding the option of shooting (M. Finnerty, Superintendent, Olympic National Park, personal communication, 1990).

There was significant outcry from those who opposed the killing and removal of goats and they chose the EIS as their weapon of control. ONP had to shut it down.

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trestle
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PostWed Aug 09, 2017 11:14 am 
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Humptulips wrote:
there was an effort in the "80s to exterminate the goats

The 80s were more than 20 years ago. No effort to exterminate the goats has taken place in the last 20 years. Not be rude, just sticking to what I said.

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Gregory
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PostThu Aug 10, 2017 3:19 am 
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You found it n the internet!
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RodF
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PostThu Aug 10, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Gentlemen, you're correct that the Park has known about this problem for decades, and hasn't solved it.  It hasn't been able to.  This is but one of a long list of known problems that have been deferred.  They're  listed in the Park's 2008 General Management Plan (Executive Summary chapter 2 page 91).

The cause of this delay is that the Park is understaffed (dozens of permanent staff positions are left vacant) because it is under-budgeted.  So it can only address the most pressing problems each year.  It has to prioritize.

On the other hand, a long list of good things worth celebrating are getting done!  Including this plan.

Like many things in life, you may view this as a glass half full or a glass half empty.

I choose to see it as half full, because however thin NPS budget and staff are stretched, NPS is certainly better off than USFS or state parks.

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Chico
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PostThu Aug 10, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Enough already. Kill them and get it done with.

What I told them when I commented. More or less anyway.

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Chico
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PostThu Aug 10, 2017 8:19 pm 
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Gregory wrote:
whiskey for a professional hunter.

There you have it. That blew the budget!

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Ski
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PostSat Aug 12, 2017 12:00 am 
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trestle, quoting Olympic National Park's goat management document wrote:
"...unacceptable risks to the capture team (Machlis et al. 1990; Peterson 1990)."

^ This is why the project was shut down. It was too dangerous for the flight crews and (ironically) there were objections to "high goat mortality" rates because animals were falling to their deaths.
(I think they were still trying to relocate them at that point, though.)

ONP is short funding, as Rod stated. No money accounts for all kinds of stuff that's not fixed.... like trails. rant.gif
At least they're working on it again, and seem to be leaning towards dealing with the issue by getting rid of the goats, instead of passing it on to the next administration, which has pretty much what's been going on up there for a couple decades.

I just noticed this week they're doing something I found rather significant in regard to invasive plant species... maybe that's a harbinger of some much-needed action coming.

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trestle
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PostSat Aug 12, 2017 10:34 pm 
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Gregory wrote:
You found it n the internet!

rolleyes.gif  Yawn.

Yes Ski, I am all for the new plan. I remember all too well the outcry over the goats falling and the NPS wrapping it up before the reduction was complete. Apparently we can afford the whiskey now.

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RodF
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PostWed Sep 13, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Impacts on wilderness of the mtn. goat plan alternatives aren't so clear.  I hope this might help.
Alternative A: No action, monitor goat population
Alternative B: capture half the Olympic goats, release them in N Cascades wildernesses
Alternative C: shoot the goats
Alternative D: capture & translocate half to N Cascades, shoot the rest (B+C)
"Alternative E" translocate only a hundred goats, shoot the rest
"Alt. C Lite" shoot half the goats, repeat every ~20 years to control population indefinitely

This chart is not available in the draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS).  I generated it based on the DEIS using a logistical model based on work published by NPS.

In the DEIS, only "agency preferred" Alt. D was carried forward for wilderness minimum requirements analysis.

The point: The DEIS has no information on which a finding of necessity can be made for translocating ~350 goats to the North Cascades, requiring >500 hours of ~2000 helicopter flights over 6 Wilderness areas and >1000? helicopter landings within 4 Wilderness areas.

A question: Does anyone realize the scope of the wilderness helicopter campaign proposed in Alt. D?   Other than Table 2 on DEIS page 47 (460 heli flights of 82 hours to release goats in NC wildernesses), it's undisclosed...

p.s. the cost of the est'd 528 helicopter-hours is $635,000 + $40,000 fuel truck = $675,000. 
The entire project has been funded for $700,000 (NPS) +~$300,000 (WDFW).  Update: $690,000 (NPS) + $461,000 (WDFW) for only the first 3 years (translocation), not counting the next 2 years (lethal means) plus staff time.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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Ski
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PostSat Sep 23, 2017 9:35 am 
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Comment period ends soon! Submit comments now!

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RodF
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PostMon Sep 25, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Comment period extended 2 weeks, now ends October 10.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Sep 25, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Option A: Humans put 'em there, they're there, leave 'em be.

Raw slaughter as a 'solution' has a long and checkered history for a reason, from livestock to people. I'm not surprised some folks really don't see an issue with just killing and letting them rot. Being willing to kill critters whose crime is existence while 'non native' seems pretty lousy to me, particularly in pursuit of something as transient as what is 'native' at any given time and in any subjective definition.

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Ski
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PostMon Sep 25, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Humans put them there in 1929 expressly for the purpose of being able to shoot them.
Shooting them achieves that original objective.

There is nothing "subjective" about whether or not mountain goats are native to the Olympic Peninsula. Exhaustive studies have been done that conclusively prove they are not, and never were, native to the Olympic Peninsula.
Those papers are available from Olympic National Park.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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