Forum Index > Stewardship > 'Environmental Nightmare' After Thousands Of Atlantic Salmon Escape Fish Farm 08/24/17
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Ski
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 6:46 pm 
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You'd think?
You mean you wouldn't know, correct?
Are you a fisheries biologist?

This isn't about "electric fields on human health". This is about an issue that threatens a native fish population that could, if it were restored to its historic levels, feed every man, woman, and child in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and probably Montana too.

This isn't about "statistics", either. And the "test population" does not number in the billions, maybe not even in the millions.

This isn't some kind of game to be played with your never-ending philosophical arguments.
Some of us take it quite seriously. Your armchair quarterbacking with your ideological based arguments might fly in the "global warming" thread, but respectfully, I have to tell you that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about here.

MtnGoat wrote:
"Negative" impacts are inherent to human living because we always influence nature.

^ This kind of rationalization for detrimental impacts by humans on an indigenous population of anadromous salmonids is simply tripe. Utter nonsense.

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SingleShot
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Interesting that a UW fisheries professor, Ray Hilborn, said calling this a disaster is a stretch

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Ski wrote:
You'd think?
You mean you wouldn't know, correct?
Are you a fisheries biologist?

This isn't about "electric fields on human health". This is about an issue that threatens a native fish population that could, if it were restored to its historic levels, feed every man, woman, and child in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and probably Montana too.

This isn't about "statistics", either. And the "test population" does not number in the billions, maybe not even in the millions.

This isn't some kind of game to be played with your never-ending philosophical arguments.
Some of us take it quite seriously. Your armchair quarterbacking with your ideological based arguments might fly in the "global warming" thread, but respectfully, I have to tell you that you clearly have no clue what you're talking about here.

Ski wrote:
^ This kind of rationalization for detrimental impacts by humans on an indigenous population of anadromous salmonids is simply tripe. Utter nonsense.

That's correct, I'd think that after so long studying the issue any obvious problems would leap to the fore. Nope, I'm not a fisheries biologist. I don't need that degree to know the basics...big problems stand out. It's that difficult and obvious, degree or no degree.

Yes, I know this issue isn't about the one I used as an example of samples size vs effect vs what we know. Holding forth on that may release some angst, but it contributes nothing to point out what we all know...one example is not like the other.

It's too bad if you don't like philosophical arguments..they underpin all of human life. I suspect they seem like too much trouble, but the fact is, flawed actions driven by flawed values and reasoning merely leads to poor outcomes.

It's very much the kind of game to be played out in philosophy, because we act upon and judge ideas, and if you don't wish to behave or make choices as if you are not sentient, you'd better be sure your ideas and how you know what you think you know are in order.

You can claim I have no clue all you want. I've said little here contradicting *empirical* facts about fish or fisheries, and what small mistakes I have made I accept correction of, gladly and openly.

It seems you don't like dealing with the *fact* that these other arguments are all value judgements, I think. I further think you see admitting it or dealing with it as creating a problem for the ends and goals you have. You take it so seriously, great. So do I..from a different perspective, not wasting resources on mindless actions we're not supposed to examine the roots of.

My tripe should be easy to show as empirically false. IF you cannot, why, you're again spouting value judgments. Which you are.

It's interesting that all I do to get such reactions as yours is to state empirical facts and identify value judgements for what they are. This says there are things, important things, assumptions and premises, which are very tender here.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 9:52 pm 
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SingleShot wrote:
Interesting that a UW fisheries professor, Ray Hilborn, said calling this a disaster is a stretch

It's very interesting, but as you'll see, only *some* experts are worth listening to, and that comes with a value judgement basis.

The same folks who'll willingly outsource their judgment to 'experts' of their choosing will turn right around and claim other experts shouldn't be listened to...because of value judgments they don't wish to discuss. (It's a time for action!! No time for checking premises)

I'd ask any warmist how they feel about the expertise of the skeptics, like Dr Gray or other anti warmists. Suddenly, they're the wrong kind of expert.

The kind that doesn't agree.

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Ski
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 10:01 pm 
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^ Thanks. That was exactly what I had expected from you- just more gasbagging.

Adios.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 10:07 pm 
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thanks...that's exactly the kind of response I knew I'd get as well. We've proven each others point.

Which is more than fine with me. I'm not the one who evades substance, with snark.

You know you can't actually show empirical flaws in my arguments which I will not take correction on. The rest is puffery...action now, think later!

maybe, lol

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Sep 12, 2017 11:34 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
like Dr Gray

The Wiki page on the late Dr Gray is interesting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Gray

Quote:
Peter Webster, a Georgia Institute of Technology professor, has been part of the anonymous peer review on several of Gray's National Science Foundation proposals. In every case he has turned down the global warming research component because he believed it was not up to standards, but recommended that Gray's hurricane research be funded. Webster, who has co-authored other scientific papers with Gray, is also critical of Gray for his personal attacks on the scientists with whom he disagreed.
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Ski
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PostThu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 am 
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Wednesday September 13, 2017 15:26 PDT

WDFW FISHING RULE CHANGE 

Nooksack River to close to pink salmon fishing


Action: Closes the mainstem Nooksack River to the retention of pink salmon effective Sept. 15. The North and South Forks of the Nooksack River will not open for pink salmon retention as scheduled Oct. 1.

Effective Date: Sept. 15, 2017, until further notice.

Species affected: Pink salmon.

Reason for action: The rule is necessary to protect returning pink runs to the Nooksack River Watershed (permanent regulations are already in place requiring release of wild chinook salmon). In-season run-size assessments conducted by state and tribal co-managers indicate that the run-size is below the escapement goal for pink salmon in the Nooksack River.

Other information: Sections of the North and South forks of the Nooksack River will open to fishing for other species of salmon as scheduled Oct. 1. Check the 2017-18 Fishing Rules Pamphlet for specific regulations.

Information contact: Mill Creek Regional Office: (425) 775-1311.

-WDFW-

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski
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PostThu Sep 14, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Thursday September 14, 2017 15:02 PDT

WDFW FISHING RULE CHANGE 

Wind River to remain closed to fishing above Shipherd Falls


Action: The Wind River from 100 feet above Shipherd Falls to Moore Bridge will remain closed to fishing.

Effective dates: Sept. 16 through Nov. 30, 2017

Species affected: All gamefish

Location: Wind River from 100 feet above Shipherd Falls to Moore Bridge

Reason for action: A minimum escapement of 500 wild summer steelhead is needed to allow for the opening of a catch-and-release fishery above Shipherd Falls on September 16. Based on recent survey results and average run timing, the wild escapement is projected to be well below that objective. Summer steelhead returns have been low throughout the Columbia River basin this year. 

Other information: This area will be closed to all fishing to protect the low numbers of summer steelhead arriving this year to spawn.

Information contact: (360) 696-6211. For latest information press *1010.

-WDFW-

(* emphasis added *)

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Gregory
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PostSun Sep 17, 2017 6:15 am 
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You are correct.This has happened before with zero impact on the wild stocks.Unfortunately "Disaster" meets the needs of the politics involved.Farm fish directly competes with the commercial/tribal fisheries.If they can scare the emotionally driven into pushing the farm fish out of here they can command more money.It is a double-edged sword.I will not eat farm fish, shrimp, catfish, any of it.But the farm fish lessen the demand for our wild fish which in turn may mean more are on the gravel spawning.
SingleShot wrote:
Interesting that a UW fisheries professor, Ray Hilborn, said calling this a disaster is a stretch
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Gregory
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PostSun Sep 17, 2017 6:24 am 
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Here is an article that popped in my Sunday newspaper.Shows how money will buy you very little oversight by the state.By the way, Kurt Beardslee, executive director of the Wild Fish Conservancy and Jim Bakker would have a lot to talk about.He is all about getting his finger sticky in the honeypot that is the endangered species act not about saving our wild fish.


http://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/local/communities/bainbridge-islander/2017/09/16/after-salmon-release-activists-want-net-pens-out-rich-passage/672624001/
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Ski
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PostSun Sep 17, 2017 9:24 am 
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^ There's nothing in that article that hints at Mr. Beardslee "getting his fingers sticky", but it does seem to point out that the State's oversight of these operations is rather lax.

I've asked Wild Fish Conservancy for some definitive evidence that the virii and parasites found in these farm-fish operations can be transferred to wild stocks, but have yet to receive any response; only more emails asking me to join their "flotilla" (mentioned in that article) or "send money" (as though one could expect something else.)

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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trestle
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PostSun Sep 17, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Could we please refrain from the veiled bigotry? It's completely unnecessary and diminishes any contribution being made.

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Ski
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PostSun Sep 17, 2017 12:08 pm 
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huh? huh.gif

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Gregory
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PostMon Sep 18, 2017 6:52 am 
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Here is an article discussing the over three million being spent studying the hood canal bridge and its effects on outgoing smolt migration.The fish run the bridge on the way out and get eaten by birds and seals.In addition, the transient killer whales do not like the bridge and do not feed in the canal like they used to.No study needed.I would love to document how this money is being spent.

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/nonprofit-to-use-new-funding-to-try-to-find-reason-steelhead-die-near-hood-canal-bridge/
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Forum Index > Stewardship > 'Environmental Nightmare' After Thousands Of Atlantic Salmon Escape Fish Farm 08/24/17
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