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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 9:11 am 
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Read the article. the truckers have a legitimate gripe.

rolling slowdown a lousy way to protest it though

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Bedivere
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 9:25 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Read the article. the truckers have a legitimate gripe.

Did, and not sure I agree with you.

What is legitimate about protesting an effective means of enforcing rules that make sense and save lives?

I would like to hear a coherent explanation of how and why being forced to follow the rules invades privacy and reduces independence.

If the trucking companies can't get away with conning their drivers into breaking the rules maybe they'll have to hire a couple more drivers?

At least 'til automation makes human direction of vehicles obsolete, then none of these guys will have anything to protest.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 10:15 am 
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What's illegitimate about protesting something you oppose?

A *goal* of saving lives is not the same thing as saving them, for one thing. If goals were outcomes, the world would already be perfect. The rules make sense to some, not others.

Quote:
Because those choices were often not in favor of safety, regulations have crept in over the years to take autonomy away from companies and their drivers. The most notable example has been the Department of Transportation’s forced-rest mandate, which tries — and often fails — to automate human behavior.

“The rule prevents drivers from moving their trucks 14 hours after they first start their day,” says Spencer, a dispatcher for a trucking company. “Once you start that clock, you can’t stop it without a 10-hour break.”

The 14/10 rule is cyclical, not daily, with a 34-hour “reset” coming after a workweek intended to span two nights. If the driver just wants a one-hour nap and nine more hours of driving, he’s out of luck. If he spent most of his 14-hour shift loading or handling logistical issues, with only a few hours on the road, he still needs to break. If his 70-hour workweek expires before he can complete a delivery, he’ll be spending 34 hours stranded, unable to reverse course until he can make the delivery. If 14/10 begins to slowly slide out of rhythm a normal sleep/wake schedule, some drivers will eventually drive tired and sleep wired.

Electronicloggingdevice_truckingfeatureinset
Electronic logs, like this ISAAC model, will be mandatory in all commercial trucks by 2017; Wikipedia

According to Department of Transportation spokesman Duane DeBruyne, “The federal hours-of-service regulations exist to prevent fatigued driving by long-haul commercial drivers…there are no minimums for on-duty hours or driving hours.”

While a driver isn’t mandated to keep driving for any set time, there’s a limit to their break — and restless or delayed sleep still counts.

“Once that 10-hour break is up,” Spencer says, “the drivers are expected to resume their trips no matter how much sleep they may or may not have gotten.”

When James, a driver based in the mid-Atlantic states, gets tired in the middle of a shift, he doesn’t slug coffee. He tells his dispatcher he’s pulling over, even though he’s rejecting the expectation he’s had his chance to rest. “That's one way you can end up fatigued at the wheel even though you're legal to drive,” he says. “When I get into that situation, I explain to dispatch and inform them that I'll pick up the load but will park as soon as I feel sleepy and that delivery will not be on time.”

Dispatch, however, doesn’t want to hear it. The 14/10 schedule was supposed to solve these problems and make James an alert and cooperative motorist. '“I've had dispatchers respond by saying, ‘Well, don't ever expect to receive a raise while working here because we run hard and I expect you to be a team player.’” (It should be pointed out that not all trucking companies are fueled by commerce over common sense; Spencer says his employer makes driver safety a priority.)

Desk drivers with zero accountability have no idea the problems 'safety' rules create in the real word.

Safety is a concern, of course. But intentions are not outcomes.

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:09 am 
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Truck drivers loath the electronic / GPS tracking.

Basically this is big brother riding along.

"Company" truckers have had this sort of precision tracking of their driving for years.  They get dinged for speeding, overreving and underreving the engine, etc, etc.

Now these rules are being extended to independent truckers -- men and women that run their small business in large part because they want to be "their own boss".
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:16 am 
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I think a better focus would be less on the micromanagement and interruption of the evolution of ways to drive more safely within more general rules. The article I posted is only the tip of the iceberg on how the rules actually remove the flexibility to be able to drive more safely.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 12:59 pm 
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So sorry for your loss.

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AlpineRose
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 1:06 pm 
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How on earth can driving the speed limit and policies preventing drivers from driving when overtired (which is as dangerous as drunk driving - for any driver) be considered micromanagement????!!!!  Stop the silly rhetoric and write something coherent for once (you know who you are).  Generally speaking, new rules and better ways of enforcing existing rules come about when too many think the rules don't apply to them and don't practice them.  This includes rules for truck drivers.

I don't want these independent truck drivers on the road if they don't want to drive safely.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Easy...when you're not the driver, and don't know what's specifics are going on, from storms to illness, from loading dock delays to anything else,  and invent and impose arbitrary time constraints and measures and rules as detailed in that and other articles, that's micromanagement.

Disagreement with your positions or arguments isn't incoherence, it's disagreement. And rules don't come about on their own from a vacuum, they come about because someone decides to impose them based upon their own value judgments. Yes, drivers are responsible for their actions and choices,  sure...but the 'look what you made me do' evasion of responsibility for *choosing* to back rules doesn't mean those supporting them don't own responsibility for choosing to do so.

You don't know they don't want to drive safely, unless you're a mind reader. You appear to think that disagreement with you must mean they don't want to.

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Bedivere
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 4:35 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
What's illegitimate about protesting something you oppose?

I should have worded that differently.  I have no problem with protesting things you oppose.

What I didn't understand was why they were protesting in the first place.  Thanks for the explanation.

Still not sure I disagree with this rule.  No system of rules/regulations will ever be perfect.  That doesn't mean you just give up on regulations altogether.

Most of the critiques of the rules in the article you quoted could easily be addressed by prudent scheduling.  It reads like industry propaganda to me.  Just one example - why would you send a driver who's reaching the end of his work week out on a run that has a significant chance to take him over his limit?  Sure, things happen, but these companies usually know how things go at the destinations they deliver to so if a delivery is critical send a driver who has plenty of time left in his schedule.  And, a "one hour nap followed by nine more hours of driving" sounds like a recipe for falling asleep at the wheel to me.

That said, it would be interesting to hear what the drivers protesting these rules would like to see instead.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Oct 10, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Thanks for the cogent comments.

I think the problem is that the real world can only be scheduled so much, and such arbitrary limits and conditions can cause the problems they are purported to solve!

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 12, 2017 1:03 pm 
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AlpineRose wrote:
How on earth can driving the speed limit and policies preventing drivers from driving when overtired (which is as dangerous as drunk driving - for any driver) be considered micromanagement????!!!!  Stop the silly rhetoric and write something coherent for once (you know who you are).  Generally speaking, new rules and better ways of enforcing existing rules come about when too many think the rules don't apply to them and don't practice them.  This includes rules for truck drivers.

I don't want these independent truck drivers on the road if they don't want to drive safely.


It doesn't work in the real world.  The common scenario is that a driver pulls into a shipper late at night and goes to sleep.  Say they open at 7 and he pulled in at midnight.  He sets his alarm, goes in, after 7 hours to get in line.  Technically, he just worked, so his ten hours should start over, although he could probably get away with not logging that, even with an electronic system.  Then, he goes back to his truck and goes back to sleep.  At 9, they knock on his truck, so he backs in, again, either restarting his 10, or not logging it.  Then, he rests some more while they load him for a couple hours.  He's ready to go, at 11, and has to pull his truck out of the dock.

With paper logs, this wouldn't be a big deal.  He was resting for 11 hours, minus a few minutes to go in and let them know he was there, and a few minutes to back in.  With electronic logs, he can't back in or pull out without restarting his clock.

Do you really think it would be safer for the driver to take 10 MORE hours off and then drive 11 hours?  Do you think he's going to sleep much in that second 10 hour period?

Seriously, that is what happens.  All sorts of things can make trucks start and stop at weird times, and those times do not work with the human sleep cycles, but our society likes to blame the guy at the bottom, so the truck driver gets blamed.  Still, you cannot regulate someone's sleep cycle.  Everyone is different.  Dispatch would tell that guy, hey you've been off for 20 hours, what to you mean you are tired?  He might even lose his job if he did that often.

IMO, drivers should be able to drive 11 hours in a rolling 24hour period with at least 10 hours off duty with stretch of at least 6 hours uninterrupted.

Beyond that, I think the owners of the truck should face huge fines when their drivers violate rules.  Companies do not get penalized much unless their is a huge disregard.  It is worth it for the company to pressure a driver to figure out a way to get it done because if there is an issue, they can blame the driver. And the driver has a good reason to do what dispatch asks.. a favor for a favor.  Team players and all.
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Waterman
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PostThu Oct 12, 2017 1:30 pm 
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The costco shuffle,  bent over forearms resting on cart walking 2 or 3 abreast. Shuffling along. More than ready to abandon their cart  in the middle of the aisle to graze at the many sample stations.

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MtnGoat
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PostThu Oct 12, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
It doesn't work in the real world.  The common scenario is that a driver pulls into a shipper late at night and goes to sleep.  Say they open at 7 and he pulled in at midnight.  He sets his alarm, goes in, after 7 hours to get in line.  Technically, he just worked, so his ten hours should start over, although he could probably get away with not logging that, even with an electronic system.  Then, he goes back to his truck and goes back to sleep.  At 9, they knock on his truck, so he backs in, again, either restarting his 10, or not logging it.  Then, he rests some more while they load him for a couple hours.  He's ready to go, at 11, and has to pull his truck out of the dock.

With paper logs, this wouldn't be a big deal.  He was resting for 11 hours, minus a few minutes to go in and let them know he was there, and a few minutes to back in.  With electronic logs, he can't back in or pull out without restarting his clock.

Do you really think it would be safer for the driver to take 10 MORE hours off and then drive 11 hours?  Do you think he's going to sleep much in that second 10 hour period?

Seriously, that is what happens.  All sorts of things can make trucks start and stop at weird times, and those times do not work with the human sleep cycles, but our society likes to blame the guy at the bottom, so the truck driver gets blamed.  Still, you cannot regulate someone's sleep cycle.  Everyone is different.  Dispatch would tell that guy, hey you've been off for 20 hours, what to you mean you are tired?  He might even lose his job if he did that often.

IMO, drivers should be able to drive 11 hours in a rolling 24hour period with at least 10 hours off duty with stretch of at least 6 hours uninterrupted.

Beyond that, I think the owners of the truck should face huge fines when their drivers violate rules.  Companies do not get penalized much unless their is a huge disregard.  It is worth it for the company to pressure a driver to figure out a way to get it done because if there is an issue, they can blame the driver. And the driver has a good reason to do what dispatch asks.. a favor for a favor.  Team players and all.

Meanwhile, some seat moistener unable to account for the combination of the realities of the variables, drivers, schedules and all the combinations of the above provides a committee of the same kinds of people with a top down, One Best Federal Way with the *intention* of saving lives, so it must work.

I understand some of the earlier legislation and requirements, sure. This level of micromanagement is ludicrous.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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reststep
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PostThu Oct 12, 2017 3:41 pm 
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That is just part of the Costco experience.   smile.gif

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Oct 12, 2017 7:15 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Meanwhile, some seat moistener unable to account for the combination of the realities of the variables, drivers, schedules and all the combinations of the above provides a committee of the same kinds of people with a top down, One Best Federal Way with the *intention* of saving lives, so it must work.

I understand some of the earlier legislation and requirements, sure. This level of micromanagement is ludicrous.

Yeah, and there are too many people with too many different priorities and too many variables to solve the scheduling issue in any economically feasible way.
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