[cartman]

This post is in partial response to another post regarding posting redline routes on maps, and by inference too much information about a particular route. But I wish to diverge a bit toward another aspect of planning for a trip: The fear of failure. I think an aspect of mountaineering that can be inferred by reliance on GPS/redline maps is not just the reduced sense of adventure, but being afraid to fail. I've seen what I might consider an over reliance on GPS and/or redline maps in partners of mine. EDIT TO ADD: And in myself as well at times. Researching a route is usually important to successfully completing it, and can also be key to doing it safely. However, over-researching it removes much of the mystery and adventure, often to the point of just "ticking off" another summit or two. After a while this becomes rote, even uninteresting. Same old, same old. Why not reduce the reliance on redlines, GPS, and/or descriptions? Make the endeavor more worthwhile by decreasing the information you have and increasing the challenge. Rely more on your experience, your eyes, and your judgment. Don't be afraid to fail. You will be a better routefinder, a better backcountry traveler, and will get a far greater sense of satisfaction from the experience. And you will learn much more than if you researched it to death. I know from past experience that if I over-research a trip I get tired of thinking about it before I've even left home. I don't like to fail, to not reach the summit. I want to put together a trip and reach my goals. But just ticking off another over-researched summit almost feels like failure. Like running to the store or something else that is boring, something that is guaranteed. Mountaineering shouldn't be a guarantee. There should be mystery, adventure and a risk of not succeeding, otherwise what's the point? Perhaps even redefine what "to fail" means. Is it a failure if you don't reach the summit but made the best decisions with the information you had? Or was it a fun and interesting learning experience? Would that not still have been a very worthwhile endeavor? Would you have a greater sense of satisfaction knowing that you're now a better climber/backcountry traveler than if you just did a route by redline? For me, the answer is a resounding yes.

[cartman]

BTW, this post does not mean I've changed my mind that it's OK to post a redline map route or a GPS track, or to use those if one chooses to. Post whatever you like. This thread is more my personal belief that less is often more when traveling in the backcountry. More rewarding, leading to a better experience. It's an evolving feeling I have, one I will need to see where it goes in my future travels.

[wolffie]

Nowadays, we even know what the weather is going to do. It's almost unsporting. Before the computers and coast radar, when Men were Men, the forecasts were just a rough guide. We always made 3 plans: Plan A. Good weather. Something ambitious on the West Side. Plan B. Iffy weather. Something on the Dry Side. Plan C. Normal weather. Stay home and clean the basement. And the 3-Pitch Rule: Go up 3 pitches, then wait to see if the weather improves. I thought it affected my whole personality; I got so used to getting screwed by the weather, I didn't know if I was becoming Stoic or Defeatist. Certainly Opportunist: you had to be ready to go every time Opportunity presented its fickle self. mm Or maybe a Gambler. Sometimes, the only way to find out if a road or trail was even open was to go find out. The kids these days. Spoiled. Too easy.

[Schenk]

Many folks these days are spoiled and won't go out unless everything is going to be perfect. They have too many other options apparently. I have too many friends these days who will cancel plans if there is even a "chance of showers" They frequently miss out; I have been rewarded many times by heading out anyway, and sticking to a plan.

[zephyr]

[Malachai Constant]

To experienced Northwest Hikers there is no such thing as fear of failure, what others call failure is only a learning experience.

[Randito]

The thing I like most about a GPS is on group trips with more than one large ego it largely eliminates time wasted in arguments over "where we are" while traveling in thick forest or fog.

[Snuffy]

I like this, Cartman. Although I started using a GPS this year (GAIA), I still regard it as a toy and mostly helps with keeping track of my adventure for later storytelling. Prefer my map/compass/altimeter. I can say that I hate to fail but love learning experiences (of which there are plenty). I agree that GPS can be a downside because there has been at least one time I used a track someone had posted and when it got to a hairy spot, my nature was to say (and still is), "Well, if they did it, so can I." Within reason, of course. Without the GPS track I might have said, "Well, hell NO!". And rightly so.

[cartman]

Snuffy, that's a good point. A GPS track doesn't always mean that is the best way to go for the originating party, or even if it is, for any future party; no more than following a set of footprints is always the right way to go. Skill levels and acceptable risk vary from person to person. I do understand that there are other reasons to use a redline on a map. For some it's personal preference for whatever reason. Some may feel as they get older they wish to reduce risk, or even be more assured of reaching a goal--a summit, an area, or even a list--since who knows how long each of us can continue to do this? Tomorrow is not guaranteed. As Jeff mentioned with the Fisher Chimneys example, there are certainly some routes where more research makes sense for one or more reasons: complexity of the route, safety, etc. Motivations differ. I may have implied that it is not OK to use a redlined map or GPS; I do not believe that and did not intend to imply that. That's up to the individual to decide. My original post was meant more as a suggestion of an alternative, and the rationale for that. And as a musing on my personal thoughts on how I may wish to do some trips in the future as I think on this more.

[Bernardo]

The old ways are good for me. I love the challenge. The best part of hiking is navigating. For me it's like using oxygen on Everest. Not wrong, but not the same either. It really is the journey.

[Snuffy]

@Cartman I didn't take it that way. I assumed it was part of the banter that happens here between old school and new. 🙂

[olderthanIusedtobe]

Interesting topic. I unintentionally retired from serious climbing years ago. Back in the day, if it was a technical climb and a feather in your cap type of peak, of course I wanted to have as much info as possible and good conditions so the chance of success was increased. But in other instances I used to purposely just bumble about, making up my own route on minor peaks w/ absolutely no guarantee of success. Which led to some crappy terrain and hairy situations occasionally, but was also kind of gratifying. Del Campo in particular I really enjoyed exploring, I've probably ascended it by at least 4-5 different routes or variations. Only one of which is the standard approach from Gothic Basin. Another might be described by Beckey, but in true Beckey fashion it's vague enough that I'm not positive he's describing the same route as one of them that I took. Not climbing, but sometimes on a hike I'll switch midstream from my intended destination because something looks intriguing so I just start meandering about to see what I can see. Or in other instances I don't even have a clearly defined destination to start with. I'm probably a cautionary tale, except I've somehow managed to never really get myself in trouble thus far.

[neek]

Eric, this is such a great topic and I agree with you completely. I started using a GPS this year and feel a little dirty. To be sure, different scenarios call for different techniques. In some cases getting lost is more of an annoyance than a learning opportunity, and everyone needs to decide what's best for themselves (and perhaps for their group) for a given goal or situation. Don't take this the wrong way but there have been a few times when you started fretting over maps and descriptions and I thought to myself "dude let's just climb the thing, if we mess up we'll fix it". And yes people have gotten themselves into trouble (or worse, endangered others) by not doing their homework. Does the introduction of new knowledge or tools carry the moral obligation to use them? This dilemma pops up in many places - whether to perform a genetic test during a pregnancy, as an example from a completely different area of life. Anyway, now I'm inspired to be a bit more adventurous next summer, and to think of the journey rather than the destination as the goal. Maybe not this winter though, as an unplanned winter bivy would really be a bummer.

[RumiDude]

[pcg]

Failure to me means not returning home safe. So yeah I'm afraid of that. My outdoor adventures almost always consist of exploring and it's hard to fail at that because all you are doing is learning what's there. Route-finding is a fun form of this. Having a red line to follow takes all the fun out of the experience. I'm old school map, compass, and altimeter, but I've added Google Earth and GPS (InReach Explorer) to my toolkit. I use Google Earth to research possible routes and interesting features to explore. The InReach gives my wife some peace of mind and I sometimes use the GPS capabilty to leave bread crumbs, to give myself some peace of mind. I used to use pink flagging for this, and haven't given that up completely, but it's nice to have a bread crumb track to travel in a whiteout. It doesn't store maps and I don't have a smart phone to pair it with. If I've found an interesting feature on Google Earth I want to locate then I will sometimes create way points to help me navigate there. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. I recently got cliffed-out on a route I created from looking at Google Earth. And that's what makes it more interesting! Google Earth and GPS waypoints aside, there is nothing so fun as gazing at a feature you want to get to, and then reading the terrain to figure out how to get there. If I end up not being able to get there by that route, or by any route, well that's just part of the adventure. Love that! To me, this is the best fun ever. Hard to fail doing this!