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Should maps with routes, especially GPS, be included in Trip Reports
Yes
57%
 57%  [ 48 ]
No
42%
 42%  [ 36 ]
Total Votes : 84

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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Among other thought provoking questions... should you post pictures for the 2018 NWH Calendar?

Reminder:  Deadline is Nov 15, 2017!


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RumiDude
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 11:09 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
You should have seen all the hate mail I got on this site for posting some photos (no map, no GPS track) of the Bathtub Lakes on Pilchuck.

And that's a part about this which is wrong. I have seen that on this site going back several years. I know an individual who refuses to post TRs on this site for that very reason, people bashing him for what they considered violations of the code of secret places.

Rumi

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olderthanIusedtobe
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 11:47 am 
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I've never understood the angst and sense of "guarding a secret" in regards to either the Bathtubs or Horseshoe.  I found both relatively easily w/ no beta, long before I had any clue NWHikers existed (or possibly before it did exist, in fact).  Horseshoe is right there in the Spring/Manning guide books.  From the summit of Pilchuck there is an indication there are lakes over there somewhere, and you  literally just follow the yellow dotted line (I've never come up from Iodine Gulch).  These places aren't secret, haven't been for many decades I'm sure.

Anyway I thought those two were kind of passe and we've moved on to other, more remote "secret places" getting defiled currently.
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Waterman
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Is anything really secret anymore? Manning wrote the text for the old guidebooks in which he most always encouraged you to read between the lines and keep going.
In every case there has been a fishermans boot path or game trail leading the way.
The skills required to navigate off trail are essential for safe travel. Over reliance on technology is never good.  I have encountered  a solo hiker looking for a bridge that my map clearly showed as being washed out, the trail rerouted. Yet this person refused to consider the evidence.
The metro area as we have all seen is getting over crowded. The best we can hope for is encourage fellow hikers to minimize their impact. To clean up after others if we must.To  think before we post. Is there a need for another Thunder Mountain trip report. Jade lake is the most recent example of a nice place becoming over run by those who probably should go to lake Dorthey.
I have to admit I enjoy reading trip reports of someone getting to places like Bannock lakes. It's been on my tick list for years. I read  a post like that and I start making plans. This makes me part of the problem. We all need to look in the mirror.
Drawing a red line to such a place is a bad idea.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost
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cascadetraverser
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 2:57 pm 
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So not every red line is the same; I have followed Crowder and Tabor`s, Becky`s and a few people`s on this site.  Some are perfectly detailed, others broadstrokes and many in between.  Having followed red lines, followed route descriptions and gone out cold with minimal beta in my traverses, it seems all ways are hard and fun, and I am not sure there is much difference between them. Therefore, I am not really sure having the redline is all that big a deal. If you don`t have the skills to do the routes, I am pretty sure you are going to be headed home soon with or without a red line.

I can`t really comment on GPS, as I don`t use it much and honestly can`t quite fathom how one would give up the map, compass and the landscape to rely so heavily on those things....An occasional position check, sure.

I have done a few traverses more than once with some years in between and honestly (with the exception of the Ptarmigan and Bailey) the terrain doesn`t seem to be worse for the wear.

One question I have is, those people so adamantly against the red lines have surely followed other`s red lines into terra incognito, have they not??

Seems like it is an individual thing.  Find a secret place then don`t post and hope it stays that way....
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Bernardo
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 7:00 pm 
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I was hiking on a not so secret trail not so long ago where I normally don't see any one, but where I do sometimes see somebody.  I've been going there for years.  Well on this occasion, I ran into a party of elderly hikers and a rather polished looking woman stopped me and I felt snootily asked how come I knew about this trail.   I feel like I would have met her expectation if I had said, I just moved here a week ago and found this GPS track online and that's why I'm here, and, by the way, I can't wait to get home and tell  my 500 closest friends tonight on Facebook.  Instead, I just laughed at the foolishness of her question and said accurately I've been coming here for years.   In our short interaction, I was left with a sense she had a huge sense of entitlement.  The very nature of her question indicated to me she didn't really know what was going on with this trail which I knew based on my frequent use saw some routine amount of traffic and that total solitude was not to be expected.  Anyway, this thread reminded me of that incident.  She had probably been using the trail once in a while her while long life and had an unrealistic view of the wilderness in Pugetopolis.
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neek
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 10:31 pm 
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One reason I can think of for not posting detailed route data is liability.  While the site disclaimer claims to apply to posters, viewers aren't required to acknowledge it and I don't know if it would hold up in court.  Sorry, but it's the world we live in.

Aside from that, of course discretion should be used.  The compromise I use is to manually sketch in a route and note that it's very approximate.  Probably not good enough for everyone's taste, but good enough for me.  It's also probably worth asking yourself "what is the point of this TR, ego boost or genuine utility?" before submitting one, and having the courage to not post if there is doubt.

Attempts at obfuscation can backfire though.  Every time Bootpathguy posts, the first thing I do is try to figure out where it is.  In the process I learn about the area and then want to go there.  Also, the most compelling TRs will attract the most eyeballs, and therefore the most boots (if the relationship is proportional) - so make yours as boring as possible, with ugly pictures!

Unrelated, I wish this site didn't allow normal users to create polls.  While this thread has generated an interesting discussion, some people who run across the yes/no results might not realize that an ambiguous question administered with no sampling strategy is completely meaningless.
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Kim Brown
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PostTue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Bernardo wrote:
s.  Well on this occasion, I ran into a party of elderly hikers and a rather polished looking woman stopped me and I felt snootily asked how come I knew about this trail.

Sometimes I ask people how they knew about X trail. It's because I enjoy hearing why they chose it. But I hope I don't sound snooty when I ask. I think I started asking when I finally hiked a trail that didn't look appealing on a map, simply because I got tired of seeing it on a map for the last couple of decades and not having done it.*  So I wonder how others decide.

*It skyrocketed to among my favorite trails and have visited it several times since, and I hate that I missed out on loving it the last 20 years. smile.gif
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