Forum Index > Stewardship > Dept of Interior begins review of 27 Monuments under Trump exec. Order.
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PostSat May 06, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Basin and Range
Bears Ears
Berryessa Snow Mountain
Canyons of the Ancients
Carrizo Plain
Cascade Siskiyou
Craters of the Moon
Giant Sequoia
Gold Butte
Grand Canyon-Parashant
Grand Staircase-Escalante
Hanford Reach
Ironwood Forest
Mojave Trails
Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks
Rio Grande del Norte
Sand to Snow
San Gabriel Mountains
Sonoran Desert
Upper Missouri River Breaks
Vermilion Cliffs
Katahadin Woods and Waters

Marine:
Marianas Trench
Northeast Canyons and Seamounts
Pacific Remote Islands
Papahanaumokuakea
Rose Atoll


Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat May 06, 2017 2:37 pm (this post can be edited by any member)
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 7:46 am 
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About the only minerals in short supply are so called rare earths which are actually quite common. The short supply is because US companies sold their equipment to China http://www.patagonia.com/home/ho shipped it out. There doesn't seem to be any oil or coal shortage or Uranium for that matter. The whole thing is something to get his base excited about because it makes "libs " cry.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 8:10 am 
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Schenk wrote:
Are there any good reasons why mining simply must happen in these spots as if there are no other alternatives? What ores/minerals are so unique to these areas, and are not obtainable anywhere else already?

There's only one reason Grand Escalante and Bears Ears were targeted by Trump - they were designated by Clinton and Obama and that seems to be his singular agenda.
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jinx'sboy
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 8:32 am 
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“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”

― Theodore Roosevelt
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 9:23 am 
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The Antiquites Act was enacted specifically to stop "Pot Hunters" in the area. I have many pictures of rock art shot up, old pueblos that resemble WWI battle fields and other looted sacred sites in unprotected areas. The locals were responsible for most of this desecration. There are lots of examples of destruction caused by mining. The Navaho people are still paying the prices of Uranium mining in the 50's through 70's from poisoning by old mines.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 10:32 am 
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Ski wrote:
^ If it were to the US Congress to designate Monuments, it would never get done.

The same could be said of some of our National Parks.

Well I guess it depends if 'whatever it takes' is acceptable enough to accept the principle as well... when someone *else* uses the same metric to undo what you prefer.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 10:34 am 
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Token Civilian wrote:
And yet Ski, doing the hard work to get Congress to legislate these protected lands is precisely what reflects that there is a sufficient consensus that they SHOULD be created.

Wilderness Act?  Passed Congress (difficult to do, requires 218+51+1).  Undoing Wilderness?  Takes an act of Congress (218+51+1).

One man with a pen only takes one man with a pen to undo.

So, get off your asses people and build the consensus necessary to get the 218 in the House, the 51 in the Senate and then finally the President to legislate these protections.

Can it be done?  Yes.....look at Green Mountain LO.  An Act of Congress saved it.  Clearly, when there is widespread public support for such things, it will get done.

All - And stop whining when a sand castle built by one is washed away when the tide changes.  And quite frankly, good riddance.  The Imperial Presidency is dangerous.  One man with a pen shouldn't be able to do these things.  Things SHOULD go through Congress.

totally agree

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 10:38 am 
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Schenk wrote:
It is quite a jump from folks wanting to keep protection over these relatively small areas, to claiming folks who oppose the exploitation of these areas are against any and all mining.  Simply not true.

Are there any good reasons why mining simply must happen in these spots as if there are no other alternatives? What ores/minerals are so unique to these areas, and are not obtainable anywhere else already?

And not to be simplistic, or cliche', but why don't we talk about recycling more? Reduction, reuse, etc?

I don't think there are any reasons you'd find good, no. After all, you're applying metrics like unique at the outset, whereas I argue that access to mineral resources should be available anywhere they can be found absent unique objective reasons not to...such as the immediate proximity of native cultural artifacts. I think protection of these is a valid argument, but even the reduced scope of the monuments reflects this position. I think they were made too large on purpose as a way of placing as much land as possible under increased Federal control while the pen stroke was available.

As for recycling, if it was economically viable you wouldn't need to pay to do it. The resources where it is viable already pay for themselves, like copper recycling.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 10:41 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
About the only minerals in short supply are so called rare earths which are actually quite common. The short supply is because US companies sold their equipment to China http://www.patagonia.com/home/ho shipped it out. There doesn't seem to be any oil or coal shortage or Uranium for that matter. The whole thing is something to get his base excited about because it makes "libs " cry.

By economic standards anything which does not have a price of zero is by definition in short supply. That's why trade functions.

To decide something without a price of zero isn't in short supply requires the observer to place themselves in a position of arbitrating or deciding what 'need' is, something I totally oppose at a govt level because it is entirely subjective.

All things being equal, more supply produces prices lower than they otherwise would be, a reason in itself to increase supply, IMO.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 11:08 am 
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The fight centers on the use of the Antiquities Act of 1906, a Progressive Era law that allows presidents to unilaterally set aside federal lands to protect objects of historical, cultural, or scientific significance.

The act was designed mainly to prevent looting of Indian artifacts, and designations made under it were to be confined to “the smallest area compatible with proper care and management” of the protected objects. In recent decades, however, the 111-year-old law has been abused as a large-scale conservation policy issued by presidential proclamation.

Since 1996, both Republican and Democratic presidents have used it to set aside more than 11 million acres of land, as well as about 760 million acres of ocean as marine monuments. President Barack Obama, no stranger to executive authority, used the act to create more national monuments than any other president.

To see why such designations are so controversial, look no further than Bears Ears. Obama created the 1.35 million-acre monument in the final weeks of his presidency despite opposition from Utah’s governor, its state legislature, and its entire congressional delegation.

A legislative proposal, known as the Public Land Initiative, sought to reach a “grand bargain” that would protect some areas of the region in exchange for opening other lands for resource development. That effort, which was several years in the making, was upended by Obama’s unilateral designation. Such is the reality of the Antiquities Act. With just the stroke of a pen, the president can avoid the democratic processes inherent to federal lawmaking and dictate land-use restrictions on locals halfway across the continent.

Designations should require Congress

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 11:30 am 
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This is clearly a very important fight - precedent set here will have impacts that go  far beyond  Utah.

Time to lawyer up. I'm sending $$ to these groups, as they have a record of effective advocacy in that area and are gearing up for battle here:
https://suwa.org/
https://earthjustice.org/

I'll also be sure my reps in the other Washington know what I  think about this. But of the two steps, I believe sending the $$ to be more  important right now. I know some people will probably  be setting up  marches but I'd rather send my gas money to the  lawyers...
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 11:31 am 
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Token Civilian wrote:
One man with a pen only takes one man with a pen to undo.

The argument is being made that the while Antiquities Act allows the President to designate National Monuments the Federal Land Management and Policy Act of 1976 allows only Congress to reduce their size.
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Schenk wrote:
And not to be simplistic, or cliche', but why don't we talk about recycling more? Reduction, reuse, etc?

Well, our backwards, unsophisticated county does recycle and from what I hear, it makes money doing it.  The program is voluntary.  I just dumped a sackful of recyclables on my way past the collection site.  We seem to be doing our part because the dumpsters are quickly filled up.  It is another thing that our county makes it easy to do.   Oh, and we have no fees for recycling.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 1:46 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
I spent 5 years in gold exploration, including resurveying old mines for possible reopening, and a summer on a drill team for uranium. I've worked open pits, placer, hard rock

Then someone calls him out after he's done peacock strutting his 'experience' and he says he's just a normal guy, that stuff doesn't matter anymore!  dizzy.gif

MtnGoat wrote:
That was 30 years ago. Now I'm just a regular recipient of the beneficence, just like anyone who purchases almost any product.

I don't see any arguments about an "entire industry" depending on 'trashing' such a small percentage of land. Nor about the USA falling apart. 

'green piety', what is that  lol.gif Hey, if you guys support the decisions of this administration, man the **** up and say it, you don't have much time left anyways.

And posting quotes from the National Review without citing the source, MG? Sure, they're not biased at all.
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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Then someone calls him out after he's done peacock strutting his 'experience' and he says he's just a normal guy, that stuff doesn't matter anymore!  dizzy.gif

I was asked to visit a mine, see what they do. I responded I've visited plenty. That's hardly strutting, especially here.

Doppelganger wrote:
'green piety', what is that  lol.gif Hey, if you guys support the decisions of this administration, man the **** up and say it, you don't have much time left anyways.

And posting quotes from the National Review without citing the source, MG? Sure, they're not biased at all.

You're arguing defending the action is somehow not defending it, or something?

How is a link, not citing the source?

Your hostility to disagreement is surpassed only by your presentation of not very good arguments. Heck, I haven't *ever* seen you whine about bias from sources you already agree with.

You couldn't even show anything flawed about the portion quoted, which puts the designation in context.

Come back for more, please.

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PostWed Dec 06, 2017 8:01 pm 
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For the Bears Ears....

Here is the grass roots organization that was in on the original designation.
They could use some help.

https://www.friendsofcedarmesa.org/why-were-going-to-court-to-defend-bears-ears/
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