Forum Index > Stewardship > Dept of Interior begins review of 27 Monuments under Trump exec. Order.
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PostSat May 06, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Basin and Range
Bears Ears
Berryessa Snow Mountain
Canyons of the Ancients
Carrizo Plain
Cascade Siskiyou
Craters of the Moon
Giant Sequoia
Gold Butte
Grand Canyon-Parashant
Grand Staircase-Escalante
Hanford Reach
Ironwood Forest
Mojave Trails
Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks
Rio Grande del Norte
Sand to Snow
San Gabriel Mountains
Sonoran Desert
Upper Missouri River Breaks
Vermilion Cliffs
Katahadin Woods and Waters

Marine:
Marianas Trench
Northeast Canyons and Seamounts
Pacific Remote Islands
Papahanaumokuakea
Rose Atoll


Wiki summmary last edited by Tom on Sat May 06, 2017 2:37 pm (this post can be edited by any member)
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treeswarper
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PostThu Dec 07, 2017 12:48 pm 
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I listened to NPR's On Point which was about this topic.  I can see both sides of the argument and to me, both sides have evil extremists trying to manipulate the outcome.

Folks need to compromise and stop the extremists from making us unable to do anything without controversy.  Local people need to have a voice--agencies need to actually listen and take their input and knowledge seriously, instead of nodding and then going about what they already had decided to do.  Just as Patagonia and the Center for Biological diversity need to scale back, so do the coal and oil companies.

I agree that Congress needs to woman up and make some decisions, but we need to have a lot of new faces to ever get out of the current gridlock.

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MtnGoat
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PostThu Dec 07, 2017 1:01 pm 
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New faces are irrelevant if they hold the same ideas. Ideas drive everything, not faces.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostThu Dec 07, 2017 4:50 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
New faces are irrelevant if they hold the same ideas. Ideas drive everything, not faces.

I assumed too much.  I assumed that most folks understood that.

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PostThu Dec 07, 2017 6:10 pm 
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That cannot be assumed these days, given the nature of arguments you see for meaningless 'diversity' based upon physical characteristics, instead of ideas.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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PostThu Dec 07, 2017 6:12 pm 
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I don't consider diversity to be meaningless.  Let's not go there.

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Doppelganger
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PostFri Dec 08, 2017 7:27 am 
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There is no defense for the actions that were taken here.

My hostility is only for the ignorance, negligence and disrespect towards our parks on display here. You can keep twisting words all you want. I'm clear on my intentions.

Yeah, Patagonia had better scale back those donations! They're just as destructive a force, I see that now  rolleyes.gif
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trestle
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PostFri Dec 08, 2017 9:46 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
New faces are irrelevant if they hold the same ideas. Ideas drive everything, not faces.

Most of the faces involved (Congress) have been there far too long and their outdated ideas will continue to impact us all for years to come. So no, your statement isn't factually wrong, but the faces control the ideas, and squash those they disagree with.

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"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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PostFri Dec 08, 2017 1:33 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
I don't consider diversity to be meaningless.  Let's not go there.

It's not meaningless, if you apply the correct standards.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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PostFri Dec 08, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
There is no defense for the actions that were taken here.

My hostility is only for the ignorance, negligence and disrespect towards our parks on display here. You can keep twisting words all you want. I'm clear on my intentions.

Yeah, Patagonia had better scale back those donations! They're just as destructive a force, I see that now  rolleyes.gif

I didn't twist any words at all.

You did. Your claims against me are ludicrous and falsified in the last post.

Don't blame me for your arguments which can be taken apart by casual inspection, because you're using anger at my arguments to puke garbage accusations against me onto a page.

You're real clear on your intentions all right and your arguments and methods are very, very clear. That's why your gripes don't even make *sense*.

More please. I love spotlighting irrationality.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Malachai Constant
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PostSat Dec 09, 2017 8:59 am 
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Among the delegation is all of Cedar Butte where most of the Ancestral Pueblo dwellings are located.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Token Civilian
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PostMon Dec 11, 2017 8:37 am 
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Seventy2002 wrote:
Token Civilian wrote:
One man with a pen only takes one man with a pen to undo.

The argument is being made that the while Antiquities Act allows the President to designate National Monuments the Federal Land Management and Policy Act of 1976 allows only Congress to reduce their size.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/commentary/yes-trump-can-revoke-national-monuments/article_4664b8ce-b5f3-502f-9db3-44efcda3e8f0.html
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Dec 11, 2017 10:47 am 
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Pacific Leagal Foundation is a right wing think tank that is in favor of reducing wilderness protection in general. They cited John Yoo as authority, Yoo is the author of the famous "Torture Memo" which hold that the president can do anything he wants. Legal opinion on whether National Monuments is split to some extent with no definitive court ruling. I guess we will get a chance to see if he can.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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PostMon Dec 11, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Malachi - In lieu of the ad hominium on the article writer, how about sticking to the arguments presented and refuting those with facts.  So, what do you say to the concept / principal brought up in the article that policy (e.g. stroke of a pen enactments) enacted by a President somehow is "permanent".

Is that a concept you support?  If so, what will you say when policies enacted by the current President are challenged by the next office holder from the other party?  Will President Trump's policies be sacrosanct, or can the next President with at "D" after they name change them, just as President Trump can (wants) to change President Obama's policies?

How do you address the article claims that past Presidents have reduced national monuments?  Have they, in fact, done so, and if so, how are those not precedents for the current reductions?
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Dec 11, 2017 12:58 pm 
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The fact that presidents have reduced them is not president for anything unless those reductions were contested in court and the reduction upheld. There is no such case what has happened was there were reductions that were not contested. The reductions I am aware of were back in the Taft or Wilson administrations before modern court proceedings. I am not attacking the author of the paper but merely explaining that they are and advocacy group with the same interests as Zinke and the administration and not an unbiased source any more than an environmental organization. It is a matter for the courts. As for the act, that is a matter for congress to modify.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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drm
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PostMon Dec 11, 2017 2:08 pm 
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As to whether what presidents do should be permanent, things that president are allowed to do via the constitution can in most cases be overturned by future presidents. One example where they can't is with pardons. But this is a case where Congress has the underlying constitutional authority and chose to delegate a piece of it to the president via the Antiquities Act. Since the Antiquities Act made no mention of reducing or removing such monuments, you could either say (1) removal/reduction wasn't delegated to presidents so they can't do it, or (2) whatever judge gets to rule on it can make it up however they want to. Unless there is another law, like the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976, that has language that applies.
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