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Ski
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 5:54 pm 
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The implication that environmental groups are money making schemes is absurd.

O RLY?

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7979717

https://niceorg.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/how-the-arfs-make-all-that-money/

I would submit as well, that the group I mentioned above - "Northwest Ecosystem Alliance" - became what is now known as "Conservation Northwest" - and the very same man is still the Executive Director - the episode with "Herschel the Sea Lion" occurred in the early or mid-1990's, or about 25 years ago. I would posit that an organization capable of supporting a full-time career over a quarter of a century would be, by definition, a "money making scheme".

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RumiDude
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PostThu Jun 15, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Ski wrote:
It appears you have gotten apples and oranges confused here.

No I haven't. I have simply stated that the environmental groups do similar to what industry and recreation associations do, fight for what they think is proper. In that sense they are all apples or oranges whichever you prefer.

The oil and gas companies use all sorts of means to get what they want. Same with mining, ranching, timber/wood, etc., they use the means available. Do they use scare tactics, hyperbole, and outright falsehoods? You betcha! And they often get their money to lobby and buy off politicians from deep pockets of the elite and sometimes even "force" their employees to contribute in a way to get around campaign spending limits.

I am not trying to claim that one side is more honorable than the other, just saying that they are all fighting for what they want to accomplish. Some do it honestly and forthrightly, and others do it deceptively. And the environmental and industry groups are equal opportunity offenders

Back to the grizzly bears. Most of this stuff by various groups is secondary to the fact that there are many people unconnected with any of these groups who have strong feelings Yea and Nay about grizzly reintroduction. It doesn't have anything to do with money or tactics, it's what they think is right. I don't begrudge you your thoughts on the matter.

Rumi

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sooperfly
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PostTue Dec 19, 2017 7:44 am 
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North Cascades Grizzly Bear Recovery Plans Halted
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Schroder
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PostTue Dec 19, 2017 10:19 am 
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Here's another article:
Trump administration halts work on Cascades grizzly plan

Not a real surprise that this would be high on Zinke's agenda.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 19, 2017 11:06 am 
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I am happy to hear that.  Leave the bears be!  If there is suitable habitat for them, they'll find it.
I really would hate to have them dumped in the North Cascades to either starve or wander down to a ranch or town and cause havoc.

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ozzy
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PostWed Dec 20, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Thanks Mr Trump.  Let it all be! drink.gif

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iron
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PostFri Mar 23, 2018 2:42 pm 
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https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/interior-secretary-ryan-zinke-throws-support-behind-grizzly-bear-recovery-in-north-cascades/

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thunderhead
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PostFri Mar 23, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Let the masses know there are grizzly bears in the enchantments and overnight permits there are very dangerous.
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Mar 23, 2018 10:36 pm 
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I had to fight off three Griz this morning on Squak*

*alternative fact

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SwitchbackFisher
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PostTue Apr 24, 2018 9:16 pm 
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https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/ryan-zinke-is-right-reintroduce-the-north-cascades-grizzly-bear/

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Byeguys
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PostFri Jun 08, 2018 7:27 am 
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East of the mountains, people still talk about a famed grizzly that reportedly "terrorized" the area back in 1958. In his office, Okanogan County Commissioner Jim Detro keeps an old cast mold of its large paw print alongside a local newspaper article recounting the bear's clashes with local cattlemen.

"We could all get along if those guys weren't over here trying to ram their idea of how we should live down our throat," Detro says.

1958. 1958. Reportedly terrorized.  lol.gif  lol.gif

Keep clutching at the past. Can't wait for that mindset to become a part of it.

https://www.npr.org/2018/05/11/609541010/ranchers-sour-on-trump-administration-over-proposal-to-bring-back-grizzly-bears
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Jun 08, 2018 8:44 am 
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There are other mindsets which belong in the past even more, and we just saw one.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ski
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PostFri Jun 08, 2018 8:59 am 
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doppelganger wrote:
Keep clutching at the past. Can't wait for that mindset to become a part of it.

SRSLY?


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Byeguys
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Armchairing
PostFri Jun 08, 2018 11:12 am 
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Ski wrote:
SRSLY?

It wasn't cute 20 years ago when kids were dropping vowels. But maybe you are on to something now, move on to the consonants next up.gif

You're probably assuming I'm making some statement about grizzly reintroduction specifically, I'm more disappointed in the general mindset fwiw.

1. Some people are surprised that their recently elected champions lied to them and flip flopped. Maybe now there will be some deeper thinking applied.

2. I see evidence of what I consider to be the wrong approach to resolving problems and implementing solutions. "They'll hunt you up", do you agree with this statement as an accurate assessment to the risks of grizzly reintroduction? An ATV parade, do you agree this is the correct way for an elected official to make his point?

3. While I am skeptical of any significant direct interaction between grizzly and cattle, I do want to learn more about what arbitrary (and potentially needless) restrictions might be imposed on ranchers if reintroduction were to move forward. Instead of the petulant blustering, they could take a deep breath and talk about the effects and alternatives. I'd listen to that.
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Ski
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PostFri Jun 08, 2018 4:48 pm 
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1. Some people are surprised that their recently elected champions lied to them and flip flopped. Maybe now there will be some deeper thinking applied.

It's an axiom that politicians will say anything to get elected. As for "deeper thinking", I commend you for your optimism, but it would appear that at least 27% of eligible voters are not capable of thinking beyond the ends of their noses.

Quote:
2. I see evidence of what I consider to be the wrong approach to resolving problems and implementing solutions. "They'll hunt you up", do you agree with this statement as an accurate assessment to the risks of grizzly reintroduction? An ATV parade, do you agree this is the correct way for an elected official to make his point?

I think the alarmist and hyperbolic fear-mongering is the result of a combination of willful ignorance, pig-headedness, and an obsession with clinging desperately to the values of ancestors long gone. I think that in this particular case (of the grizzly bear), the conflicts that have arisen as the result of the gray wolf in Eastern Washington have had a significant effect on the local residents, particular those who are raising livestock.

Quote:
3. While I am skeptical of any significant direct interaction between grizzly and cattle, I do want to learn more about what arbitrary (and potentially needless) restrictions might be imposed on ranchers if reintroduction were to move forward. Instead of the petulant blustering, they could take a deep breath and talk about the effects and alternatives. I'd listen to that.

That begs the question as to whether they've been made aware of any potential effects or possible alternatives, and what, if any, restrictions might be placed upon them. What sort of outreach effort has been made by USFWS, WDFW, or any of the so-called "environmental" groups with those in the business of raising livestock?
I'm going to make a wild guess and speculate it's been about the same as it was with the gray wolf: little to none.
While "public meetings" are all fine and well, it should be considered that geographic distances between points east of the Cascade crest can be daunting, and those in the business of raising livestock are usually busy working.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your comment above, but it comes across as rather obtuse.
There aren't many people on this site who are in agreement with my views on all sorts of issues, but I'm not wishing them away. I just don't think some of them have their heads screwed on straight. Maybe their mothers dropped them on their heads when they were babies and damaged their brains, or they're just stupid by no fault of their own.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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