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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Jun 15, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Chico wrote:
Ski -

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 8491 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Jun 15, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Rumi, those associations do not challenge projects nor sue about said projects in any way like the enviro groups do.  They have occasionally done so.  I wish I could find the data that was sent out a while ago. 

The associations are funded by contributions from industry and do not rely on grants and lawsuits or "settlements".   I don't see them doing mass mailings where a crisis is made up that NEEDS PROTECTION. 

What is sad is that so many people do not realize that the things that NEED PROTECTING NOW already are.  We have zoning, the Washington Forest Practices Act, Forest Plans, not to mention specific laws. 

For instance, one organization sent out a flyer to send them money, they were busy planting Redwoods.  Redwoods sprout back naturally from the stump.  I'm not an expert on them but that's what they do.  Other organizations or companies want donations for reforestation, but I'm not sure where they do that.  Our private and government lands require reforestation within a certain time and  that is planned for as part of the overall management plan.  I imagine if folks knew about all the rules that govern our public and private lands, donations might dwindle to some of the groups.   

I argue that like bears, people shouldn't feed (give money to) those groups.   They've created more animosity than help.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostThu Jun 15, 2017 5:17 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Rumi, those associations do not challenge projects nor sue about said projects in any way like the enviro groups do.

They often challenge laws and lobby for the industry. It's all the same kind of stuff. The resource extractors are some of the most active in that regards.

Of course who is worse depends on which side you're on. You know, it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

My off-the-cuff guess is that there are waaaaaay many more industry groups than there are enviro groups. I am guessing there is waaay more money being spread around by those industry groups as well. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 28 May 2005
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Ski
><((((°>
PostThu Jun 15, 2017 6:40 pm 
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treeswarper:
I believe you may be referring to the 5-part series that was originally published in the Sacramento Bee about 15 years back which detailed the methods and operating strategies of some of the aforementioned groups. There was a thread here about it but I'm not finding it with the search feature. (edit: found it - link in post below.)

Rumi - The private industry groups (as far as I know) aren't suing the Federal Government (read US) using the "Equal Access to Justice Act", nor are they using as their muscle the law enforcement capacities of State and Federal law enforcement agencies such as the US Fish & Wildlife Service. There is a world of difference there which you apparently choose not to see.

Generally speaking, those industry advocacy groups amount to not much more than lobbyists, their effectiveness generally determined by how much money they can pony up to buy off elected representatives. But "lobbying" as such is nothing new - it's an activity that's been around for a long time - prior to the founding of this country. (The term actually goes back to early English Parliament.)

It appears you have gotten apples and oranges confused here.

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 28 May 2005
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Ski
><((((°>
PostThu Jun 15, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Quote:
The implication that environmental groups are money making schemes is absurd.

O RLY?

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7979717

https://niceorg.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/how-the-arfs-make-all-that-money/

I would submit as well, that the group I mentioned above - "Northwest Ecosystem Alliance" - became what is now known as "Conservation Northwest" - and the very same man is still the Executive Director - the episode with "Herschel the Sea Lion" occurred in the early or mid-1990's, or about 25 years ago. I would posit that an organization capable of supporting a full-time career over a quarter of a century would be, by definition, a "money making scheme".

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus



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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostThu Jun 15, 2017 10:11 pm 
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Ski wrote:
It appears you have gotten apples and oranges confused here.

No I haven't. I have simply stated that the environmental groups do similar to what industry and recreation associations do, fight for what they think is proper. In that sense they are all apples or oranges whichever you prefer.

The oil and gas companies use all sorts of means to get what they want. Same with mining, ranching, timber/wood, etc., they use the means available. Do they use scare tactics, hyperbole, and outright falsehoods? You betcha! And they often get their money to lobby and buy off politicians from deep pockets of the elite and sometimes even "force" their employees to contribute in a way to get around campaign spending limits.

I am not trying to claim that one side is more honorable than the other, just saying that they are all fighting for what they want to accomplish. Some do it honestly and forthrightly, and others do it deceptively. And the environmental and industry groups are equal opportunity offenders

Back to the grizzly bears. Most of this stuff by various groups is secondary to the fact that there are many people unconnected with any of these groups who have strong feelings Yea and Nay about grizzly reintroduction. It doesn't have anything to do with money or tactics, it's what they think is right. I don't begrudge you your thoughts on the matter.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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sooperfly
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sooperfly
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PostTue Dec 19, 2017 8:44 am 
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North Cascades Grizzly Bear Recovery Plans Halted
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Schroder
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Schroder
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PostTue Dec 19, 2017 11:19 am 
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Here's another article:
Trump administration halts work on Cascades grizzly plan

Not a real surprise that this would be high on Zinke's agenda.
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostTue Dec 19, 2017 12:06 pm 
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I am happy to hear that.  Leave the bears be!  If there is suitable habitat for them, they'll find it.
I really would hate to have them dumped in the North Cascades to either starve or wander down to a ranch or town and cause havoc.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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ozzy
The hard way



Joined: 30 Jul 2015
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Location: University place, wa
ozzy
The hard way
PostWed Dec 20, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Thanks Mr Trump.  Let it all be! drink.gif

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Milk is for babies. When you grow up you have to drink beer. -Arnold
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iron
getting old



Joined: 10 Aug 2008
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iron
getting old
PostFri Mar 23, 2018 3:42 pm 
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https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/interior-secretary-ryan-zinke-throws-support-behind-grizzly-bear-recovery-in-north-cascades/

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man, you go through life, you try to be nice to people, you struggle to resist the urge to punch 'em in the face, and for what?

--- moe sizlack
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thunderhead
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thunderhead
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PostFri Mar 23, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Let the masses know there are grizzly bears in the enchantments and overnight permits there are very dangerous.
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Mar 23, 2018 11:36 pm 
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I had to fight off three Griz this morning on Squak*

*alternative fact

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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burck17
Boot buster



Joined: 24 Feb 2018
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burck17
Boot buster
PostTue Apr 24, 2018 10:16 pm 
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https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/ryan-zinke-is-right-reintroduce-the-north-cascades-grizzly-bear/

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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Doppelganger
Armchairing



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Doppelganger
Armchairing
PostFri Jun 08, 2018 8:27 am 
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Quote:
East of the mountains, people still talk about a famed grizzly that reportedly "terrorized" the area back in 1958. In his office, Okanogan County Commissioner Jim Detro keeps an old cast mold of its large paw print alongside a local newspaper article recounting the bear's clashes with local cattlemen.

"We could all get along if those guys weren't over here trying to ram their idea of how we should live down our throat," Detro says.

1958. 1958. Reportedly terrorized.  lol.gif  lol.gif

Keep clutching at the past. Can't wait for that mindset to become a part of it.

https://www.npr.org/2018/05/11/609541010/ranchers-sour-on-trump-administration-over-proposal-to-bring-back-grizzly-bears
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