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AlpineRose
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Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1953 | TRs | Pics
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| Quote: | | Are skis like bikes? In that if you have "n" bikes, you need "n+1" bikes? (or skis) |
Ha, ha. No, skis are more like shoes. You might have one pair of shoes that works with every kind of activity your feet do - or most kinds anyway. For example, you might have a nice looking pair of trail runners that work for home, the office, the trail, packed snow, backpacking, climbing even (although not skiing). But most people are better off with footwear tailored to each of their activities. They will be safer, more efficient, and have more fun.
Likewise, there are so many different types of skiing - and the skis to go with them: groomed xc Nordic, ungroomed xc Nordic, skating, lift-served powder, lift-served groomed, lift-served icy, alpine touring firm snow, alpine touring powder - the racing versions of all of the above and the beginner, intermediate, expert versions of all of the above. Now it may be true you could try to do all those types of skiing on all those types of snow using one pair of skis. But. You'll definitely be more skillful, safe, and efficient - and learn faster and have waaay more fun with the ski best suited for each type of skiing.
This is how a garage or basement gets filled up with enough skis to look like a small ski store. Especially if old gear is not rigorously gotten rid of.
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pcg
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Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 334 | TRs | Pics
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pcg
Member
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 Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:56 pm |
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| AlpineRose wrote: | | This is how a garage or basement gets filled up with enough skis to look like a small ski store. Especially if old gear is not rigorously gotten rid of. |
Amen to that!
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Classic XC was about style sharing is about as strength, me I do not care this is after living in XC paradise, eastern Canada.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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tmatlack
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Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 2854 | TRs | Pics
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tmatlack
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Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:10 am |
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psg,
Well said! Your description illustrates the difference in technique. As you can imagine, I was able to study the experts for only a few moments as I ate their "dust" and watched them kick around the next bend. Being in lycra or spandex also helped distinguish the origins of their kick.
Those boys could fly...especially on the long ascending grades and up steep hills in the herringbone.
Do you know if we have any Nordic medal chances in the upcoming Winter Olympics?
tom
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:17 am |
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| tmatlack wrote: | | Do you know if we have any Nordic medal chances in the upcoming Winter Olympics? |
There are two Methow Valleyites that are going. I am thinking the woman would be the best bet as she is placing in world races in Europe.
I learned the most from a Norwegian transplant. I still hear the voice chanting "One ski, one ski one ski". That was to get the rhythm down for what we now must call classical.
The big thing is to get efficient so as to use less energy. You don't want to be thrusting out your lower arm to stick the pole in. Your arm should naturally swing back to a neutral/natural position and (I'm having a very hard time 'splaining this on line) and you push back on the pole. I think of it as palm flinging the pole out of my hand back there. Your pole straps need to be fairly tight for this.
I'm terrible. I entered the Klister Kaper and got a red ribbon only because there were 4 people in my age group. In Wisconsin where I was in exile, I lucked out and had a groomed place to go only 10 miles away. They even had full moon skiing there. Then I'd do the Book Across the Bay, where you ski across a bay on Lake Superior from one little town to a littler town. That was at night and they discourage using headlamps as the course is lit with ice lumenarias. It is a very big event. The smart people wait for the crowd to get ahead and then depart and the ice will be tilted downhill from all the weight of those folks so they have a downhill ski.  Yah.
I should be back living in the Okanogan area next week and have the hefty metal edged slow skis packed where they are handy. I'm out of practice and shape so the death skis can wait to be used.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:12 am |
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| Foist wrote: | | Julia, I recommend Fischer Ultralight/Superlite (I forget which term they use now) Crown. |
Ultralite and Superlite are similar, although different, skis. Superlite has citizen race ski construction. Ultralite costs less, has recreational ski construction, is 1mm wider along entire length of ski. Ultras tend to have softer camber, although camber varies ski to ski. Fischer once put camber rating by kg on Superlite labels, but AFAIK they stopped doing that a few years ago. I have a very stiff pair of Superlite Crowns, luv 'em. Either ski is a good pick for skiing groomed classic tracks for a skier who wants a bit more stability than a straight race ski profile. An alternative is a race profile fishscale ski, e.g., Fischer CRS Crown (less expensive) or RCR/RCS Crown (race ski construction).
If you've got the money and you want to ski FS roads, I'd recommend supplementing with a double camber metal edge fishscale ski for FS roads, e.g., Fischer E99 Crown or Madshus Glittertind MGV+. The House has limited sizes Glittertind MGV+ for a screaming deal. Of the two, I prefer the Glittertinds, which are a wee bit wider and have a softer tip. Both skis are narrow enough to fit in groomed classic tracks, which comes in handy when tracks are icy and/or chewed up (i.e., typical Easton SP XC track conditions).
Boot/binding systems deserve a dedicated tread. I'll leave this here: If an SNS boot fits you best, ignore those who claim that SNS binding won't work with NIS plate ski. SNS bindings screw just fine into NIS plate skis.
Another thread idea: Fat fishscale, e.g., Voile Vector BC or Objective BC, which work best with AT or tele boots.
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Foist
Sultan of Sweat
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 3974 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back! |
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Foist
Sultan of Sweat
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:20 am |
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Interesting. I have "superlight" (not "superlite"), but I bought them several years ago. Probably due for new ones soon.
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:18 pm |
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I dunno when the spelling changed. I had a pair of c. 1985 Fischer Superlight Crowns, off-white with big old school sweeping tips. Fun skis but not as poppy, fast and light as my c. 2013 Superlite Crowns I bought at the Marmot Mountain Works GOB sale. AFAICT new Superlites are the same but with NIS plates. Fun fast ski, although not as fast as racing Crowns, e.g., my c. 2010 Fischer RCS Crowns (very stiff).
Fischer now has a Supreme Crown, which at 46/42/44 is 2mm narrower than Superlight. 42mm waist is narrower than Fischer's classic racing skis, which are 41/44/44
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boot up
Old Not Bold Hiker
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 4745 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bend Oregon |
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boot up
Old Not Bold Hiker
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:16 pm |
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| DIYSteve wrote: | | Fischer now has a Supreme Crown, which at 46/42/44 is 2mm narrower than Superlight. 42mm waist is narrower than Fischer's classic racing skis, which are 41/44/44 |
46 or 44 is getting down to a definitely skinny racing ski! Definitely would seem to be for groomed track only?
I was trying to find the tip widths of the other skis you mentioned and it appears Fischer has phased out the E99 series from what I am seeing. Looks like they were a 66 width? And the Madshus are a 68. Good general use widths that can break trail occasionally when required. I spent a long time debating widths, trying out skis from my bro-in-laws quiver and doing research on what ski widths are compatible with groomed track grooves. Seems like a lot of variation on what is "acceptable" with upper limits from 65 to 70. Apparently above those numbers you get a lot of drag in the grooves and a lot of stink eye from the people running those 41's you mention.
My retirement budget says I needed a one solution fits all ski, and I was tending towards 68-70's with my fused ankle but after trying a pair of Fischer Spider 62's for my light duty skiing needs, I was sold on that particular flexy, metal edged, medium length waxless ski. Reviews seemed to support my choice. The local "expert" store talked me into manual, NNN, bindings on an NIS plate. Which took a bit too talk me out of NNN-BC auto bindings I was using. Hopefully that works out well.
Note, Solomon, in a major marketing rattling move, now makes NNN boots and bindings! No more mucking around with deciding SNS or NNN, with all future choices narrowed by those limits. They will keep making some SNS, but expect the market to be limited. I bought a pair of Solomon "hybrid" NNN boots and left the skate bracing on, which works well for my fused ankle.
I was trying to find some used gear, but the market for good used gear around here is crazy and for only a tiny bit more, you can buy a new xc package instead of a beat to crap used set. People have crazy high expectations for selling price on used gear locally.
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:58 pm |
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| boot up wrote: | | 46 or 44 is getting down to a definitely skinny racing ski! Definitely would seem to be for groomed track only? |
Classic racing skis are typically 41-44-44 with zero side cut. Superlights (48-44-46) have a bit of side cut and a much more substantial tip. A good XC skier, e.g., either of the DonB's, can ski lots of off-track stuff on Superlites. I skied many miles of FS roads on Superlites when I was a younger man -- and I'm big for a XC skier.
| boot up wrote: | | it appears Fischer has phased out the E99 series from what I am seeing. |
Nope. Fischer still makes E99s in same dims as they were 35 years ago, i.e., 54mm waist. They are now called E99 Xtralite. Fischer also introduced an E109 (60mm waist) with double camber. Fischer XC skis wider than that (S-bound) are single camber.
| boot up wrote: | | Looks like they were a 66 width? And the Madshus are a 68. |
Those are tip widths. Better to compare XC skis per waist width.
| boot up wrote: | | Seems like a lot of variation on what is "acceptable" with upper limits from 65 to 70. Apparently above those numbers you get a lot of drag in the grooves and a lot of stink eye from the people running those 41's you mention. |
Although E99/Glittertind class skis do (barely) fit in most classic tracks, the metal edges can chew up the tracks, so we avoid using them unless the tracks are already chewed up or for the very short stretch of the Cabin Creek tracks to access the Amabalis tracks.
| boot up wrote: | | They will keep making some SNS, but expect the market to be limited. |
SNS is more popular than NNN for racers -- skate and classic -- so SNS race boots will be around for a long time, and IMO race boots is the way to go even if you're on recreational skis. SNS Pilot system, skate and classic, has thousands of fans, and I can't imagine Salomon abandoning them. I have classic and skate SNS race level boots, and I usually use the skate boots with my Glittertinds for additional support. I prefer the control of SNS Pilot vs. NNN, especially for step turns, but NNN has its fans. Best to get whichever boot fits best and go from there.
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CC
cascade curmudgeon
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 647 | TRs | Pics
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CC
cascade curmudgeon
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Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:15 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | I should be back living in the Okanogan area next week |
Wait a minute: Miss "don't move here" is moving to the east side? Hey, don't move here! All you westsider's moving here are driving up housing prices and clogging the left lanes of our four-lane highways. Don't move here, just send us more of your taxes.
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
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DigitalJanitor
Dirt hippie
Joined: 20 May 2012
Posts: 792 | TRs | Pics
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I love XC skiing too! 
Currently my beater everyday skis are a pair of old Trak Marathon something somethings I got from the used sports store in Wenatchee with SNS bindings already on for $90. The bases had no scratches.... until I got a hold of them, lol. They're kinda stiff wood waxless skis with a straight cut at around 52 or so, so I'm guessing they're touring skis of some kind.
For the kind of snomo trail dirtbaggery I'm usually doing they're just about perfect when paired with a solid combi boot. If it gets too icey I can get some good 'skate to survive' licks in on them.
It's been a looooong progression of skills but I'm at the point where I can get away with stupider things with those kind of skis than I used to be able to. Can't say I'm "good" though.
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:58 pm |
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| DigitalJanitor wrote: | | Currently my beater everyday skis are a pair of old Trak Marathon |
As I recall, 49mm waist, straight or slight side cut, wood core, medium soft double camber. "Recreational" class. We sold lots of those when I was a shop rat 35 years ago
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tmatlack
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Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 2854 | TRs | Pics
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tmatlack
Member
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Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:23 am |
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Cyclo,
Look what you got us into! Great thread! Does anyone remember the opening ceremonies for the Lillehammer Winter Olympics where the torch-bearing Nordiques are doing jump telemark turns down the ski jump hill? Along with Bjorn Daehle, that was a defining moment for Nordic for me.
For beginners, two other "classic"(pun) arguments are:
1. Wax skis vs. waxless skis
2. and should a beginner learn diagonal stride 1st or go right to the more popular and faster skate technique....
PS: for young uns, Google up Bill Koch. I was told he won that Silver medal on mohair skis. Can anyone confirm this??
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:02 am |
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| tmatlack wrote: | | For beginners. . . 1. Wax skis vs. waxless skis |
Scales (waxless) is a no brainer for novice classic PNW skier. Kick waxing @ 28F-32F+ range is a PITA and scales are often faster than purple/red/yellow hard wax or klister. I kick waxed 100% when I lived in MN. Since moving to the PNW 35 years ago I've used scales for 95%+ of my classic XC. Classic skiing in blueX wax or colder conditions is a joy, but that represents only a few days a season at Snoqualmie or Stevens Pass, and scales skis with proper camber for the skier weight/style work fine on those days anyway. I haven't kick waxed in my last 150 days of classic XC skiing.
| tmatlack wrote: | | 2. and should a beginner learn diagonal stride 1st or go right to the more popular and faster skate technique.... |
No way skating is more popular than classic in the PNW or the U.S. as a whole. Skate skiing might be more popular on some groomed track areas in some conditions, but there are considerably more classic skiers than skaters in the PNW and all but a few areas in the U.S. Note that most (maybe >80%) of skate skiers also classic ski, while <30% of classic skiers skate ski, i.e., there are more classic skiers than skate skiers.
IMO, the threshold issue re skate v. classic is the relatively limited number of groomed skate areas (e.g., Cabin Creek, Hyak/Iron Horse, Stevens Nordic, Methow Valley trail system) vs. many more places to classic ski (e.g., all of the above groomed areas + hundreds of FS roads, out your back yard, city parks, golf courses).
IMV, most PNW hikers and snowshoers would be better served first learning to classic ski on scales. There may be exceptions, e.g., someone who lives in The Methow. FWIW, most of my friends who live near the best skate tracks in the PNW (Methow) spend much more time on classic gear than skate gear.
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