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RumiDude
Marmota olympus



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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostTue Mar 13, 2018 10:44 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
If by equitably you mean the people getting the most state services pay the least for them, yes an income tax is the ideal method for this kind of 'equitable'.

You are conflating taxes with supposed benefits, which is a diversion from the idea of equitable taxes.

Equitable taxes are just that an equitable system of taxing. When my two boys were growing up I required that they participate in family life. Part of that participation was doing things for the rest of the family, i.e. chores. I wanted the chores to be "equitable" but I recognized that the difference in age meant that their chores would be different. Their chores were based on their ability to perform service to the family, NOT on what they got from the family. that is what I mean by "equitably".

Rumi

PS: Growing up I was the middle child of three boys. Both my older brother and younger brother had asthma, which meant that I was the one that had to mow the lawn all the time. I hated mowing and complained, but at the same time I didn't expect my brothers to do it.

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Huron
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Huron
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PostTue Mar 13, 2018 11:01 am 
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No. The people getting the most from government are weathy. Can you imagine Bezos making his fortunes without public roads subsidizing his delivery? Without police, the SEC, the FDIC and the military guarding his fortunes? Without basic copyright, patent and DMCA? Without courts? Without social services allowing his employees to work for very little or schools to occupy employee children while they work?

Recreation on public lands contributes to the success and well-being of each of us both directly and indirectly. We should seek efficiency in keeping it maintained and keep it both open to and supported by all.
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MultiUser
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PostTue Mar 13, 2018 11:06 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
You are conflating taxes with supposed benefits, which is a diversion from the idea of equitable taxes.

Equitable taxes are just that an equitable system of taxing. When my two boys were growing up I required that they participate in family life. Part of that participation was doing things for the rest of the family, i.e. chores. I wanted the chores to be "equitable" but I recognized that the difference in age meant that their chores would be different. Their chores were based on their ability to perform service to the family, NOT on what they got from the family. that is what I mean by "equitably".

Rumi

PS: Growing up I was the middle child of three boys. Both my older brother and younger brother had asthma, which meant that I was the one that had to mow the lawn all the time. I hated mowing and complained, but at the same time I didn't expect my brothers to do it.

Ah, but the concept of 'equitable' is only based on opinion.  There are few things certain in life.  One is that nearly everyone believes taxes should be fair.  Another that is nearly everyone believes *their* taxes are too high, and it is others that aren't paying enough. IMO there is nothing inherently wrong in having the recipients of a benefit have the burden of paying for it as well.
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joker
seeker



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PostTue Mar 13, 2018 11:29 am 
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Yes, I'll agree that a preference for progressive taxation of regressive is based on a value judgment. One that I share. And to the comment above that people can just  consume less if they want to pay less sales tax - the problem for folks toward the  bottom of the  economic pile is that they typically have, through force of very  limited funds, have cut consumption back about as far as they reasonably can. Folks even just a bit higher in  the pile have  a lot more leeway.

But I think it's academic with respect  to fees as I don't see anything getting  rid of the need for  them any time soon.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus



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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostTue Mar 13, 2018 12:27 pm 
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MultiUser wrote:
Ah, but the concept of 'equitable' is only based on opinion.

Well it is difficult to quantify things, that is true.

MultiUser wrote:
There are few things certain in life.  One is that nearly everyone believes taxes should be fair.  Another that is nearly everyone believes *their* taxes are too high, and it is others that aren't paying enough.

This is actually a well known and understood psychological phenomenon.  If you have ten people working on a task/project and asked each what was the percentage of their contribution, the percentages generally add up to between 150% and 200%. The same applies to the perceived percentage of benefit/recognition. Or as Tom Smothers always said to Dick Smothers, "mom always liked you best."

MultiUser wrote:
IMO there is nothing inherently wrong in having the recipients of a benefit have the burden of paying for it as well.

Again the family analogy ... I could use the family car. Part of the understanding of using it was that I was expected to wash the car occasionally, vacuum it out, and put in a couple dollars of gas every once in a while.

When I got a job at 16, I threw in a few dollars to the family budget every paycheck. It was nothing compared to what my father gave, but I wasn't expected to match his contribution because he made soooooooo much more than me. I think that was equitable.

As this applies to the current Discover Pass and other user fees associated with outdoor recreation, I do not have a big problem with user fees per se. But user fees should not be a means to fund the bulk of public facilities. That should come out of the general fund. User fees should only augment the general fund and should be low enough that it excludes nobody.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Schroder
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PostTue Mar 13, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Since the military now wants to use our State Parks for training missions I think they should subsidize the parks for everyone else and get rid of the pass.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus



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RumiDude
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PostTue Mar 13, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
Since the military now wants to use our State Parks for training missions I think they should subsidize the parks for everyone else and get rid of the pass.

Maybe all the military use of ONP and surrounding area could come under the same type of agreement.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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RodF
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PostWed Mar 14, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
Since the military now wants to use our State Parks for training missions I think they should subsidize the parks for everyone else and get rid of the pass.

I thought the Navy and the Coast Guard were part of the public?  Do I need a Discover Pass to land a kayak on a state park beach, or swim to or walk onto one?  Do I need a NW Forest Pass to drive on a forest road, or park in an old empty unimproved logging landing or quarry?  Do I need a separate permit to sail a boat past or fly a Cessna over each forest or park?  I don't think so.


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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus



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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostWed Mar 14, 2018 8:35 pm 
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RodF wrote:
Schroder wrote:
Since the military now wants to use our State Parks for training missions I think they should subsidize the parks for everyone else and get rid of the pass.

I thought the Navy and the Coast Guard were part of the public?  Do I need a Discover Pass to land a kayak on a state park beach, or swim to or walk onto one?  Do I need a NW Forest Pass to drive on a forest road, or park in an old empty unimproved logging landing or quarry?  Do I need a separate permit to sail a boat past or fly a Cessna over each forest or park?  I don't think so.

I can't speak for Schroder, but my response was intended as tongue in cheek.  Though on a serious note, I do wish some of the jet flights, whoever is doing them, over ONP would back off. When I was working up the Elwha, I regularly heard what seemed like to me low flying jets. I am serious about that. I have had my sleep interrupted by seemingly low jets while camped for a week at Chicago Camp doing trail work up to the Elwha Basin. And the jets seemed like a multiple times daily occurrence when I was at Hayes and Elkhorn.

Anyway, I wish we could get better funding for all our parks and recreation areas. The decline is beginning to pick up a pace which all the volunteer work and professional crews cannot keep up with. We are going to lose trails and others facilities. And of course the access we have to the trailheads is threatened by the road maintenance backlog.

I do see a need for fees that remind the user they have skin in the game, but I don't want family access to depend on having a sizable disposable income.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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puzzlr
Mid Fork Rocks



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puzzlr
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PostWed Mar 14, 2018 9:14 pm 
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WTA now has a survey up. Some clearly have strong opinions to share. I mostly dislike how hard it is to know which pass is required for any particular place. Signage on the road isn't enough -- you need your pass before you get there.

WTA:
Want a Simpler Pass System? Take This Survey

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RodF
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PostWed Mar 14, 2018 9:54 pm 
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RumiDude wrote:
I wish we could get better funding for all our parks and recreation areas. The decline is beginning to pick up a pace which all the volunteer work and professional crews cannot keep up with. We are going to lose trails and others facilities. And of course the access we have to the trailheads is threatened by the road maintenance backlog.

"At Olympic National Park, the trail funding has not kept pace with increases in traffic and changing conditions. The trail crew receives around $500,000 annually in base funding, down from $600,000 seven years ago."  - "Park on the Edge: Funding Shortfalls at Olympic National Park" (NPCA, 2014), page 22.

That's why the Park's draft Wilderness Stewardship Plan proposes alternatives which reduce or eliminate maintenance of up to 200 of the Park's 600 mile trail system.  Is 3% of the Park's budget and fee revenue adequate to maintain access to 95% of this Park?  No.  But 5% would be.  Instead, the Park is spending $3.4 million renovating its Visitors Center this year, essentially a full year's entrance and backcountry hiking permit fee revenue.

As for roads, Olympic National Forest has an annual road maintenance budget of about $250,000 or $100 per road mile.  Compare that to any county road budget of $1500 to $2000 per road mile.  No wonder USFS roads are falling apart.  USFS trails (essentially no budget, minimal sporadic regional project support) depends almost entirely on volunteers.

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"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir
"the wild is not the opposite of cultivated.  It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



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treeswarper
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PostThu Mar 15, 2018 6:23 am 
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I bought an electric assist fat tire bike after hearing about this year's FS road maintenance budget.  That's how optimistic I am about future budgets.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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burck17
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burck17
Boot buster
PostThu Mar 15, 2018 2:21 pm 
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puzzlr wrote:
WTA now has a survey up. Some clearly have strong opinions to share. I mostly dislike how hard it is to know which pass is required for any particular place. Signage on the road isn't enough -- you need your pass before you get there.

WTA:
Want a Simpler Pass System? Take This Survey

Since I am not the one who saw this and posted it I don't want to steal credit. But it should be it's own topic to get as much attention to this survey as possible

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I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Stefan
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PostThu Mar 15, 2018 3:15 pm 
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I say,

transfer all National Forest land and BLM land from Federal jurisdiction to State jurisdictions.  Maybe the roads would be better managed.  Maybe less hoops?  Maybe....

Let the Federal Government only keep the National Parks.

Then each state has its own "pass" to lands in how they want to handle and fund them.

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Art is an adventure.
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Schroder
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PostFri Mar 16, 2018 8:20 am 
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RodF wrote:
I thought the Navy and the Coast Guard were part of the public?  Do I need a Discover Pass to land a kayak on a state park beach, or swim to or walk onto one?  Do I need a NW Forest Pass to drive on a forest road, or park in an old empty unimproved logging landing or quarry?  Do I need a separate permit to sail a boat past or fly a Cessna over each forest or park?  I don't think so.

There's a big difference between a family going into a State Park for a picnic and a federal agency using the ground for military assault training.  IMO there should be compensation to the state.  I'm not talking about the airspace over those parks.

Stefan wrote:
transfer all National Forest land and BLM land from Federal jurisdiction to State jurisdictions.

That's what Utah aims to do. Strip mines here we come.
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