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Token Civilian
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Token Civilian
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PostWed May 16, 2018 7:20 am 
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awilsondc wrote:
Is there a Washington version of Capitol Peak?  aka dangerous peak (or any location really) that is make popular via social media leading to unprepared people venturing out and not taking the risks seriously enough, leading to bad outcomes?

Snow Lake in winter.
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boot up
Old Not Bold Hiker



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boot up
Old Not Bold Hiker
PostWed May 16, 2018 10:32 am 
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What about the expectation of people to be instantly bailed out the high risk situation they entered voluntarily, when it goes bad.

I recently read of a recent tragic death of a climber on Mt Hood.   
The grieving family was blaming his death on the SAR response (with helicopter extraction) being "slow". 
I read the article expecting a day or two delay due to weather or something.

It was 5 HOURS from accident to rescue helicopter in place.     I personally think that was a phenomenally GOOD response time, with much credit due to SAR, and would certainly exceed any expectations I would have for the circumstances.    Are my expectations wrong?  Should we all expect to have a helicopter with full EMT support to snatch us out of any remote and dangerous situation within minutes? 

Maybe this ties in with the "familiarity breeds contempt", to quote Aesop, brought on by social media exposure?

Maybe Aesop's fables need to be included in small kids' bedtime story rotations more often, like they used to be?

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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed May 16, 2018 11:27 am 
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boot up wrote:
What about the expectation of people to be instantly bailed out the high risk situation they entered voluntarily, when it goes bad.

There was and still is a big flap about no cell service on the Mountain Loop for visitors of Big 4. Many were surprised (and outraged ) that there is none. Lots of people are surprised in the front country and back country when there's no cell service. They don't even know to think it doesn't exist everywhere on the planet.
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Windstorm
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Windstorm
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PostWed May 16, 2018 11:59 am 
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boot up wrote:
What about the expectation of people to be instantly bailed out the high risk situation they entered voluntarily, when it goes bad.

I recently read of a recent tragic death of a climber on Mt Hood.   The grieving family was blaming his death on the SAR response (with helicopter extraction) being "slow".  I read the article expecting a day or two delay due to weather or something.

It was 5 HOURS from accident to rescue helicopter in place.     I personally think that was a phenomenally GOOD response time, with much credit due to SAR, and would certainly exceed any expectations I would have for the circumstances.    Are my expectations wrong?  Should we all expect to have a helicopter with full EMT support to snatch us out of any remote and dangerous situation within minutes?

It was definitely a tragic situation and from what I can tell, the family wasn't blaming the SAR response. They were unhappy about delays in getting the response started. From reading the news articles, I can see how they would be concerned about how the situation was handled between the initial 911 call and the helicopter request. Whether they are right or whether the delays were reasonable will probably be decided in court based on a lot more information than the news articles have.

I see no problems with your expectations. There are any number of things that could have increased the response time by several times over, especially if no helicopter was available. As it is, it sounds like the National Guard helicopter that flew out was the third one they called (after ski patrol and the sheriff's office).
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Eric Hansen
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Eric Hansen
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PostWed May 16, 2018 2:03 pm 
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I've seen photos of that ridge on Capitol Peak off and on for years. What always struck me was the sheer length of the gnarly stuff, maybe a mile, you'd have to do to get off the top if lightning came in.
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Seventy2002
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PostWed May 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
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boot up wrote:
It was 5 HOURS from accident to rescue helicopter in place. I personally think that was a phenomenally GOOD response time, with much credit due to SAR, and would certainly exceed any expectations I would have for the circumstances.

See http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/08/post_274.html

I think response time could have been even better if the people at the scene had accurately described the victim's medical condition and unequivocally requested helicopter evacuation.
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Ski
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PostWed May 16, 2018 7:19 pm 
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boot up wrote:
What about the expectation of people to be instantly bailed out the high risk situation they entered voluntarily, when it goes bad.

If our house catches on fire, we have a reasonable expectation that the fire department is going to show up and put the fire out.
If we are robbed at gunpoint, we have a reasonable expectation that the local constabulary is at least going to write up a report, if not conduct an investigation.

If we choose to endanger our lives by climbing up into an alpine area, how is it a reasonable expectation to believe somebody will come and rescue us if bad things happen?

If you choose to jump out of a perfectly operational aircraft at 6000 feet elevation and your parachute fails to open, would it be a reasonable expectation to think that somebody is going to come to your rescue before you hit the ground?

If you choose to play Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic handgun (which has been done, by the way), would it be a reasonable expectation to believe that the odds might be in your favor?

At exactly what point does what most of us would consider to be a reasonable expectation become delusional fantasy?

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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car68
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car68
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PostWed May 16, 2018 9:51 pm 
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"I think response time could have been even better if the people at the scene had accurately described the victim's medical condition and unequivocally requested helicopter evacuation."

  I agree with Seventy2002, while there is no way to know if a faster response would have saved his life a greater sense of urgency from the caller would have helped speed up the response.  Call receivers are pretty good at sending the right help.  As long as they get good information.  A good location is critical.   Nature of injuries.  With a doctor and Mountain Rescue already on scene there should have been some information on the injuries.  Maybe the caller didn't convey it.  I know one of the guys that was there and I suspect he would have asked for a helicopter right away. 

  Even then it can take awhile to find one.  Here in Washington a local asset needs to be requested first.  King and Snohomish are the only ones with rescue helicopters.  If they are not available the call goes out to the military.  The Whidbey crews are great but their primary mission is to the Navy jets.  They are not always available.  Coast Guard Port Angeles is good but those aircraft are not suitable for high altitude.  (Generally avoid over 5,000 feet.)   Once I had to use USCG from Astoria Oregon for a rescue near Snoqualmie Pass.  That was a 5 hour rescue with most of it being the long flight up.  The patient survived. 

  Like others have said already there are no guarantees.

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I'm the guy 911 calls.
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Doppelganger
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PostThu May 17, 2018 8:02 am 
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Token Civilian wrote:
awilsondc wrote:
Is there a Washington version of Capitol Peak?  aka dangerous peak (or any location really) that is make popular via social media leading to unprepared people venturing out and not taking the risks seriously enough, leading to bad outcomes?

Snow Lake in winter.

Rattlesnake Ledge sprang to mind. We may scoff since it doesn't have the impressive dangers of a place like Capitol Peak, but every year...
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coldrain108
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coldrain108
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PostThu May 17, 2018 9:22 am 
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car68 wrote:
Like others have said already there are no guarantees.

It would be interesting to take a poll at the Ira Spring/Mailbox/Si trail heads to see what people's perception of that "guarantee" is.  My guess is they see it as being someone's responsibility to be watching out for them, like little children.

It would also be interesting to see if they would not be as likely to take a risk if they thought no one was coming immediately if it went bad and they had to take care of their own emergency situation.

Personally I loved that feeling, knowing that I was on my own caused me to be hyper vigilant, cautious and prepared.  Razor focus.  3 days into the Big horns in WY in 1986 meant if something went bad it was going to be a long time before any help arrived.  Makes my senses tingle thinking about that level of solitude, something that no longer exists. frown.gif

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"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch and do nothing"  - Albert Einstein
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Forum Index > Trail Talk > Social media is changing our relationship to risk
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