[reststep]

[kbatku]

Why not use them as training for our military's snipers? No one would even know the snipers were around, the animals would get a quick and painless death, and we could write the whole thing off as a training exercise.

[Ringangleclaw]

[Slugman]

There is no double standard on helicopters. One use is for bringing out non-native things (goats) that do not belong. The other would have brought in non-native things (shelters) that they feel do not belong. Me, I like shelters, and see no harm in keeping the ones that exist, even if rebuilt.

[trestle]

I have no problem with shelters but am done with the goats; however, comparing helicopter flights for a shelter v. goat eradication is apples and pomegranates, the catchy new comparison of the week. Sarah Palin hunting goats from a helicopter over ONP would make the heads of OPA explode. Not that I'm supporting either but that's the climate we live in.

[Ski]

Speaking of which.... A young man who just moved here from Texas and is working at Ace Hardware up the street told me you can pay a hundred bucks to get on a helicopter and shoot wild feral hogs out in the hinterlands of Texas with fully automatic rifles. Sounds like a hoot, even though I swore I'll never to to Texas any more. Of course... I might change my mind given the right options:

M134 minigun

Yeah.. I know... wild Olympic Mountain goats are a "fur piece" away from feral hogs in Texas, but you have to admit it is an excellent example of apples and pomegranates.

[reststep]

I thought it was comparing helicopters to helicopters.

[rossb]

Overall, I really like this program -- it sounds like a great compromise. Those that love the furry creatures get to see a bunch of them carried off to where they are needed. Those that just want them gone get to see them removed. This is not the most cost effective solution, but a lot cheaper than trying to move all of them. You move the ones that are easiest to catch. Those are also the ones that are easiest to hunt. That means that while allowing open season on goats might save a few bucks, it probably wouldn't save a lot. You still have to get the ones that are hard to find. It also is easier to have a coordinated effort that involves all the same professionals, instead of trying to coordinate with a volunteer group of hunters (e. g. "OK, you guys head over to that corner of the park -- there are a handful left there"). It makes sense to hunt them with helicopters, which means that volunteers would have to have experience hunting from helicopters. There are lots of hunters capable of shooting a goat from the ground, but my guess is not that many that have shot from a helicopter. To engage a volunteer set of hunters to promise to hunt them on the designated day seems like it is more trouble that it is worth. Unlike some programs (like the one with feral pigs) this one is designed to eradicate them, not keep them in check. Letting professionals do it all sounds like the right choice. The key is to find them all. Actually killing them should go fairly quickly. Close a section of the park, do the job and then off to the next area. Hopefully this doesn't get tied up in the courts, as I could see some groups objecting. As with every great compromise, you will upset someone, and those people might hire a bunch of lawyers.

[RodF]

Rossb, I suggest you read the final (not draft) plan. (1) It adds an extensive program to recruit and train public volunteer hunters within the Park, detailed in full on page 54. (2) It is not a "compromise" plan. It will capture all the goats possible within the budget, 3 or 4 times more than the minimum necessary either to reestablish herds or increase genetic diversity (Concern 39, page J-16). This has the desirable outcome of allowing hunting to resume in the North Cascades without waiting an additional 1 or 2 decades for a smaller translocated population (say 100, instead of 350) to grow and disperse naturally. But it also requires 3 times the minimum necessary number of helicopter flights. Both are desired by WDFW and by hunters. Unfortunately, (1) is illegal under Olympic NP's establishment legislation, 16 USC 256b, prohibiting shooting. (2) is illegal under Wilderness Act section 4c, allowing only minimum necessary helicopter use. I share your concern. Not because the plan is a compromise at all (let alone a "great" one), but because it's better than doing nothing. My concern is redoubled because if anyone competent does sue, they'll win. And a competent group with a long string of wins on precisely these grounds has threatened to do so. This plan is like waving a red flag in front of bull. That's foolish.