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BigBrunyon
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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Location: the fitness gyms!! |
| treeswarper wrote: | | Convince me that my dog won't be killed should we stumble into a pack territory. |
It will be killed. That's the way the world works. Bigger dawg eats not as big dawg!!
Basically, here's the deal: A lot of people and a lot of dogs have lived and died in this world to date. One person and their pet are totally insignificant in that picture.
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gb
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gb
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 Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:18 pm |
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| harrymalamute wrote: | | The wolves were not in defense of den or kill site, they were traveling as a pack on the same road as the teacher and she jogged right into them. |
Certainly jogging through a Cougar's territory triggers a predatory response. Maybe the same response is triggered in Wolves. That wouldn't be particularly surprising. Personally, I wouldn't be jogging or bicycling where I know there may be bears, mountain lions or cougars. There was the case near Canmore recently where a bicycler was killed by a Grizzly Bear when the human ran into the bear. Big surprise.
Bear jam
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harrymalamute
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gb wrote:| Code: | | Certainly jogging through a Cougar's territory triggers a predatory response |
Really, The only point I'm trying to make is that out of all the apex predators. cougar, bear, wolf. only the canid travel in packs and pack mentality is a hole different game than cougar or bear.
In bear country wear a bell or make noise, carry spray keep a clean camp and your good to go unless the bear is habituated.
cougars. solitary stalk from behind, usually young males without full skills kicked out of mothers pride desperate for food attack that jogger or mtn biker. A number of person"s have bet or fended off a cougar attack off.
wolves. A single or pair is likely to be curious maybe shadow or study from a distance. Now stumbling into a pack that is not deter'd for what ever reason. den, kill site or they are just traveling because they can easily range 100 square miles. and if your the dumb ass that did the stumbling.. then it does matter.
which leads to this: BigBrunyon wrote:| Code: | | One person and their pet are totally insignificant in that picture. |
maybe in a hypothetical world they don't matter and or your conscious just doesn't care about your fellow man and his dog but to many it does matter.
even pro wolf people should care because all negative wolf activity ultimately hurts the wolf.
We should stop pretending such encounters are not going to be more frequent in the future as the numbers go up and educate the public as to the possibilities and how they should travel in the wilderness with wolves
hikes and climbs with malamute
hikes and climbs with malamute
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gb
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gb
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:26 am |
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| harrymalamute wrote: | | maybe in a hypothetical world they don't matter and or your conscious just doesn't care about your fellow man and his dog but to many it does matter.
even pro wolf people should care because all negative wolf activity ultimately hurts the wolf.
We should stop pretending such encounters are not going to be more frequent in the future as the numbers go up and educate the public as to the possibilities and how they should travel in the wilderness with wolves |
This, whether you intended it or not is a bit of a misrepresentation of fact and serves as a scare tactic. Reality is that the habitat will reach a carrying capacity for wolves as it does for all predators. Washington's wolves are even now only slightly growing and will soon reach such a maximum capacity; but Yellowstone now as 20 years ago supports about 100 wolves.
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Ski
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Ski
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:37 am |
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The "carrying capacity" for Yellowstone National Park would be limited by the population of available prey species; ungulates and other small mammals.
Wild ungulate populations (and populations of other wild game species) combined with domestic livestock production in Washington State would provide an unlimited supply of prey.
How do any conclusions drawn from population studies at Yellowstone logically apply here?
cattle population of Washington State: 1,100,000
cattle population of Yellowstone National Park: 0
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:05 am |
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| Ski wrote: | | The "carrying capacity" for Yellowstone National Park would be limited by the population of available prey species; ungulates and other small mammals.
Wild ungulate populations (and populations of other wild game species) combined with domestic livestock production in Washington State would provide an unlimited supply of prey.
How do any conclusions drawn from population studies at Yellowstone logically apply here?
cattle population of Washington State: 1,100,000
cattle population of Yellowstone National Park: 0 |
Wyoming has a cattle population of 1,270,000, Montana 2,550,000 -- The wolves in Yellowstone don't care about park boundaries.
Explain why you think biology operates by different rules in WA than in MT and WY
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Ski
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Ski
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:12 am |
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The wolf population inventory above presumably applies only to the wolf population within Yellowstone National Park.
If the wolf population inventory above applied to the whole of the states of either Wyoming or Montana, you would have a question.
It doesn't.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:24 am |
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The wolves don't care about the park boundaries. There are many more packs in WY and MT.
What evidence do you have that wolf populations in these states is utilizing the | Quote: | | unlimited supply of prey |
to support an unlimited population of wolves?
Especially since the supply of cattle in WY and MT is far more "unlimited"
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pcg
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pcg
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:58 am |
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Ski
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Ski
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:38 am |
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Randy, if you want to go down into some tangential rabbit hole, you go right ahead. I'm not interested.
Sorry the facts don't agree with your narrative.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski
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Ski
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 am |
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| Ski, in a previous post in this thread wrote: | | Possibly a bit more inter-agency communication/coordination might have prevented this incident, which could have ended much differently. |
The subject of inter-agency communication and information sharing will be a point of discussion on the agenda in forthcoming meetings and communications with other management agencies.
(* pers. comm. AF / USFWS 071718 )
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 am |
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| Ski wrote: | | Randy, if you want to go down into some tangential rabbit hole, you go right ahead. I'm not interested.
Sorry the facts don't agree with your narrative. |
Seems like this is a typical Ski response when asked to provide substantiation of a point he is asserting. "I'm not interested"
You were the one asserting a narrative that wolves in Washington have an "unlimited" food supply from cattle that they don't have elsewhere.
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harrymalamute
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gb wrote:| Code: | | This, whether you intended it or not is a bit of a misrepresentation of fact and serves as a scare tactic. Reality is that the habitat will reach a carrying capacity for wolves as it does for all predators. Washington's wolves are even now only slightly growing and will soon reach such a maximum capacity; but Yellowstone now as 20 years ago supports about 100 wolves. |
What your graph doesn't show is that during the same time period Idaho went from 38 wolves to over 600 and an ecosystem that can only sustain about 300. where do you think all those wolves came from?... Jellystone.
Anyhow my view isn't about how many wolves should be but educating the public that numbers of larger pack sizes vs originally just breeding pairs has and is going to increasingly change the wilderness experience to the average poodle dog hiking-Subaru driving recreationalist.
For instance the Selkirks didn't always have bear boxes in the high country and large signs at trail heads with picture of grizzly bear with a list of do's and don't.
Problem is even with the public being informed. No one can describe to me what to do if by acting with regard for the wolves yet stumbles into a pack that takes up position around them what the average person is going to do, especially if they have a poodle dog on leash.
hikes and climbs with malamute
hikes and climbs with malamute
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Ski
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Ski
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:31 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | You were the one asserting a narrative that wolves in Washington have an "unlimited" food supply from cattle that they don't have elsewhere. |
No, that's not what I said at all, but thanks for playing.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:52 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | RandyHiker wrote: | | You were the one asserting a narrative that wolves in Washington have an "unlimited" food supply from cattle that they don't have elsewhere. |
No, that's not what I said at all, but thanks for playing. |
Sorry I must have been confused by the plain meaning of this text.
| Ski wrote: | | Wild ungulate populations (and populations of other wild game species) combined with domestic livestock production in Washington State would provide an unlimited supply of prey. |
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