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Ski
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PostSun Aug 05, 2018 10:33 pm 
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^ true. hippos kill a whole mess of people...

all that aside, the bottom line is that the risk is not zero.

in comparison to other potential threats (like idiots text messaging while driving), it is unquestionably minuscule, but it is not zero.

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RandyHiker
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PostMon Aug 06, 2018 12:03 am 
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Ski wrote:
all that aside, the bottom line is that the risk is not zero.

Sure It's not zero, no one said it was zero.

You're more likely to die from a bee sting or automobile accident than a wolf attack.

Carrying benadryl, driving carefully and carrying bear spray are ways reduce risk.
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treeswarper
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PostMon Aug 06, 2018 9:30 am 
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I don't live in an area with hippos.  Therefore, I'm not going to worry about them. 

The dog bite reference?   Yes dogs bite and kill people and are related to wolves.  People in this area can shoot dogs and not get a zillion death threats from internet weenie warriors.  Shoot a wolf and get caught  and you have to go underground for a while at least, plus court, plus legal fees etc. 

The big problem is that most people who live in the area many of you consider to be your playground (it is not where you live) do not want wolves or grizzlies dumped near them.  That's it.  The pro-dumping people, some who do live here, have not reasonably explained why we should like this.  There are no advantages that I can see for me, as an example.  I'll have to carry more weight as in a weapon if I want to go places that were once wolf free and fairly free of any grizzlies.  I will have to maybe leash my hiking companion to keep her from getting killed in an inhumane way.  The thought of wolves and non-native grizzlies being around is not enjoyable for me.  I'd rather they weren't there. 

We are forced against our will to have to deal with them.  Note the word force.  Yes, we could move away.  So could wolf loving people.  Wolves have already been in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Wyoming.  You could move there or to Alaska.  You can see wolves at NW Trek or Wolf Haven.  It's not like they are extinct or rare. 

This forcing of wolves and grizzlies is backed up by using threats of arrest and fines and a lot of legal trouble.  There are no incentives, just threats of punishment and name calling.  It's just another annoyance forced and another brick in the wall of Puget Sound vs everywhere else in Warshington.  Puget Sounders reasoning is the long held and used, 'cuz we got the money and there's more of us.  If you disagree, please explain in a reasonable manner.  I'm being honest and stating my opinion.  Note the word, opinion.   


Disclaimer:  I am not in favor of joining Idaho, nor taking over any bird sanctuaries or other stereotypes of people who do not want wolves and grizzlies dumped upon them.

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RandyHiker
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PostMon Aug 06, 2018 10:02 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
There are no incentives,

So you expect some sort of government handout to comply with the Endangered Species Act?

What's next? incentive pay for not speeding and a bonus for not cheating on your taxes?

ETA:  Also the western states became largely wolf-free by the 1930's because of government bounties on wolves.   Without those bounties -- wolves would have remained extant within Washington for much longer or perhaps never eradicated -- as they were never eradicated in Canada (which still has government sponsored wolf kills) 

So the current policy of protection under the ESA might be categorized as fixing something that the government broke.
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Dave Workman
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PostMon Aug 06, 2018 7:40 pm 
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olderthanIusedtobe wrote:
Well if you start looking at other continents wolves are still nowhere near as deadly as crocs, hippos, big cats, venomous snakes, etc. etc. etc.

While all of that may be true, it really doesn't matter to the person being killed whether he/she is the victim of a wolf, bison, croc, big cat, venomous snake, deadly insect, drunk driver, whatever.
In the end, they're just as dead.

frown.gif

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Ski
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PostMon Aug 06, 2018 8:48 pm 
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^ The salient and obvious point inexplicably being overlooked by several, apparently.

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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 5:41 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
So you expect some sort of government handout to comply with the Endangered Species Act?

Well, there is already a huge "government handout" to establish the wolves.  And yes, I also feel strongly that the endangered species act needs a rewrite.  It has been used for purposes other than what it was intended such as a funding source for enviro groups via lawsuits.  Another government handout, in my opinion. 

When you start on "government handouts" in a topic about wolves, you start going down a slippery slope.  Not only on wolves, but salmon as in the every day truck them around the dams that supply power to the Puget Sound area.  There's a good chunk of money handed out for endless studies, helicopters to study or shoot wolves because for god's sake they mustn't be hunted, ever, damages for cow killing,

Wanna talk additional "handouts"?  The endangered species act is a good source of funding (handout) for biologists,  and organizations that beg for funding (handouts) to Save The _______.    They lose a chunk of funding (handouts) when a species is taken off the list.  There is no incentive for them to want a species to recover sufficiently to be taken off as long as their funding (handout) relies on the "endangered" label.

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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 7:07 am 
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treeswarper wrote:

RandyHiker wrote:
So you expect some sort of government handout to comply with the Endangered Species Act?

Well, there is already a huge "government handout" to establish the wolves.  And yes, I also feel strongly that the.....

So your complaint is that everybody else is getting a government handout, why not me.
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gb
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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Dave Workman wrote:
Ski wrote:
^ the cougars and bears aren't being blamed by the hunting community for reducing the populations of deer and elk, as has been the case with the wolf.

That's not entirely accurate. Depends upon to whom one listens. Cougars, and to a lesser extent, bears, are considered responsible for reducing deer populations by a fair number of hunters. I spoke with a pal who owns a ranch in EW where the deer population seems to have either moved or been thinned a fair amount, and the perp may be a cougar or family of cougars.

Speak to all the guys you want. They have an agenda. Chronic wasting disease
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gb
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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Citing incident numbers solely for North America really doesn't look at the larger picture, either. When you start digging and look at a global view, the picture changes considerably - there have been a good number of incidents documented in Asia - particularly in what is now the Russian Federation.

Don't know about the Russian Federation but in Europe which isn't far away it is likely that European wolves were enough different genetically that it might account for the great difference in attacks there. I've read a couple of papers on this in the past because I, too, was curious.
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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 5:56 pm 
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re: "They have an agenda."

Everybody's got an agenda.

Converse County, Wyoming is on the other side of the Rocky Mountains.
How does that study area have anything to do with anything going on in Eastern Washington?

As for "genetically different", while that may well be true, as Dave pointed out above, the genetics of the animal most likely matter little to the person being eaten.

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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 7:29 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Well, there is already a huge "government handout" to establish the wolves.  And yes, I also feel strongly that the endangered species act needs a rewrite.  It has been used for purposes other than what it was intended such as a funding source for enviro groups via lawsuits.  Another government handout, in my opinion. 

And an ill educated opinion at that. Too much Faux.

Quote:
Kieran Suckling, executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity, said in statement issued in October that environmental groups collect only a small portion of overall fees under the Equal Access to Justice Act. He said his own group receives only a tiny fraction — less than 0.5 percent, on average — of its annual revenue of about $8 million from those attorney fees recovered.

“No one’s getting rich by making the government follow the law,” Suckling said in the written statement. He declined to be interviewed for this article. “Republicans are using this bill as a back-door attack on environmental laws they don’t like.

All you would have to do to trash this opinion is to look at financial reports of environmental organizations  (you choose) and look at income versus expenses. I am sure you will just go back to Faux for more bs.

I looked at Earthjustice for 2017: Contributions totaled $85 million, litigation rewards including reimbursements 2+ million, donated litigation help 3+ million.

So there you go again.
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gb
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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Converse County, Wyoming is on the other side of the Rocky Mountains.
How does that study area have anything to do with anything going on in Eastern Washington?

WDFW says on their website that there is no evidence in Washington of wolves having any impact on game. They also say the population will balance itself with the environment and deer are going to die regardless the cause; be it hunters, cougars and bears and dogs, or disease.

Washington of course, is not Idaho or Montana so we can rule that out as you do disease.
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Dave Workman
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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 7:56 pm 
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gb wrote:
WDFW says on their website that there is no evidence in Washington of wolves having any impact on game. They also say the population will balance itself with the environment and deer are going to die regardless the cause; be it hunters, cougars and bears and dogs, or disease.

Washington of course, is not Idaho or Montana so we can rule that out as you do disease.

Well, a fair number of sportsmen and women (people who hunt and are hardly enamored with the WDFW) might argue that the agency is a bit overweight with wolf advocates and understaffed by "game" biologists (who understand what user group pays the bills). If that is the case, and I'm not saying it is, there would be reasonable doubt about admitted/ acknowledged wolf impact on game...we don't want to bad mouth our canine brothers, or whatever.

Besides, I identified cougars and, to a lesser extent, bears for the predation. Now, if someone were to suggest that mountain lions and bears aren't killing deer and elk, that would be delusional. wink.gif

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PostTue Aug 07, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Dave Workman wrote:
Well, a fair number of sportsmen and women (people who hunt and are hardly enamored with the WDFW) might argue that the agency is a bit overweight with wolf advocates and understaffed by "game" biologists (who understand what user group pays the bills). If that is the case, and I'm not saying it is, there would be reasonable doubt about admitted/ acknowledged wolf impact on game...we don't want to bad mouth our canine brothers, or whatever.

WDFW, in a press release of 08/03/18 wrote:
For the two-year budget cycle that begins in July 2019, WDFW is preparing proposals to the governor and Legislature to address an estimated shortfall of $30 million and make additional targeted investments. About two-thirds of the department's proposed budget request would come from the state general fund, while recreational license fees would comprise the remaining third.

(full text of WDFW press release of 08/03/18 HERE )

gb wrote:
And an ill educated opinion at that. Too much Faux.

Perhaps Dave is more well-versed on exact numbers, but my understanding is that sales of hunting licenses in Washington State are in decline.

The reason for the decline nationwide in sales of hunting and fishing licenses is admittedly open to debate, but it cannot be argued that there is (and has been for decades) a portion of that user constituency that has become disillusioned (or disgusted) with the mismanagement of the resources by WDFW.
The decline in sales of sport fishing licenses was well known in the late 1980s. I personally cannot remember the last time I purchased a fishing license, and the reason I stopped buying them was solely because of WDFW's incompetence in managing the fisheries resource.

You will note in the above-cited WDFW press release that they are forecasting a $30 million dollar budget shortfall for the next biennium.
Presumably they hope to make up that shortfall from the Washington State general fund.
This is not the way WDFW was originally set up - decades ago WDFW collected a good amount of money from sales of fishing and hunting licenses, and the astronomical budget shortfalls we currently see were not an issue.

Whether or not WDFW claims that the wolf has no impact on game populations doesn't change the fact that they're spending a lot of tax dollars on "wolf management" that they apparently don't have.
In addition to the estimated $1.5 million spent on "wolf management" during the last biennium by WDFW (see citation in post just below the WDFW press release URL), they are also spending a lot of money on Mazama Pocket Gophers, Pygmy Rabbits, and God-only-knows how many other animals that are listed as TES (Threatened or Endangered Species.)

There are people who pay taxes that view this policy as fiscally irresponsible. It has nothing to do with "ill educated" or "Faux" - it has to do with dollars and cents and tangible return on investment.
In the case of the Gray Wolf, if you have empirical evidence that any of the benefits that are supposed to be realized as a result of wolf reintroduction (as cited in the papers of Beschta-Ripple from OSU) in Washington State, please feel free to cite them.

What happened in Yellowstone National Park has thus far not happened here within the borders of Washington State.
According to the Washington State Wolf Management Plan "The first fully documented breeding pack [in Washington State] was confirmed in 2008." The passing of ten years should have allowed ample enough time to realize the putative "benefits" touted in the Beschta-Ripple papers, which are the de facto foundation of all of the "pro wolf" arguments.

Now comes WDFW, hat in hand, holding a series of public meetings in which they hope to address the issue of their $30 million dollar budget shortfall.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, which has nothing at all to do with "ill informed" or "Faux", they've spent far too many decades pissing away public resources while mismanaging the resources they are charged to preserve and protect for the benefit of the citizens of Washington State.
Let them revise their game plan and invest their limited resources in such manner as benefits both the resource and the citizens of this State. I am not the least bit interested in what "Center for Biological Diversity" or "Defenders of Wildlife" want - they're not paying taxes here in Washington State.

==

As for your statement about monies paid out to so-called "environmental groups" to reimburse them for legal fees under the Equal Access to Justice Act:
In a previous discussion thread of 11/10/09 regarding the Equal Access to Justice Act, it was pointed out that

"In total, $4,716,264,730.00 (that is billion with a “b”) in total payments were paid in taxpayer dollars from the Judgment Fund from 2003 through July 2007 for attorney fees and costs in cases against the federal government."


The 10-year-old Sacramento Bee article cited in the above thread debunks the claims of "Center for Biological Diversity" you've cited above, and a number of other articles in that thread do the same.

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