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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:04 pm
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I appreciate there are more things to consider than price. China in particular has been using practices I don't think are sound either. But the issue that you can't but help to add cost to baseload by adding green power won't change for them either.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12797 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 pm
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The Chinese government realized they needed to do something about air quality several years ago when the State-paid costs of treating respiratory ailments skyrocketed.
Their motivation to do something was money, not just PR.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:21 am
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MtnGoat wrote: | But the issue that you can't but help to add cost to baseload by adding green power won't change for them either |
I think in China's case they already have sufficient coal fired base load capacity . An indicator of this that have stopped building new coal generation plants and have been building solar generation instead.
There is no need to build fossil fueled base load capacity for industrial uses such as aluminum smelting. When cheap electrons from solar or hydro aren't available it doesn't make economic sense to burn coal, oil or gas to generate electricity to make aluminum.
In the PNW we have a very distorted view of electrical pricing with abundant and cheap hydro power. In states where fossil fuel generation is dominant residential rates are 2 - 3 times per kwh what we pay here in Washington.
Solar generation and hydro generation have a similar cost profile -- in that the vast majority of the cost is construction and operating costs are low. Fossil fuel plants have the opposite profile, the plants are relatively cheap to build, but costly to operate.
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Doppelganger
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6303 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:48 am
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MtnGoat wrote:
Quote: | I don't need to pretend. I argue for by the numbers standard method here |
IF you were engaged in actual science, you'd merely show us the actual flaws in my arguments
Here you go:
For your data you look at selected individual small towns like Poughkeepsie and Dusty, and then misrepresent those carefully selected individual sites to be accurate records of global temperature. This is, of course, BS. Here is the real record of earth surface temperatures: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-temperature
And the graph of CO2: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide
If you can propose that the earth surface is not warming and that CO2 is rising commensurately, let’s hear it. Otherwise no more BS.
If you think there is another reason that makes any sense at all that C02 is rising other than anthropocentric causes, let’s see your proof. Otherwise no more BS.
You are either argumentative, protecting financial self interests, or just plain unobservant.
I frankly find it amusing that people respond to your BS as if it had any validity. That ship sailed long ago.
I note that Goat did not address the issues above. In as much as his views of Global Warming are out in space statistically, it is Goat that must support his position, not the other way around. I supported mine with the links above. Goat didn't answer.
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thunderhead Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2015 Posts: 1510 | TRs | Pics
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:59 am
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thunderhead wrote: | Quote: | In states where fossil fuel generation is dominant residential rates are 2 - 3 times per kwh what we pay here in Washington. |
An exaggeration. |
How so ? Hawaii is 100% oil generation and 3x Washington's NE states that are largely coal fired are 2x Washington's rates.
Washington 9.70
...
Hawaii 32.03
Alaska 22.16
Massachusetts 21.69
Connecticut 21.54
Rhode Island 20.03
New Hampshire 19.76
California 18.91
New York 18.52
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6303 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:16 pm
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thunderhead Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2015 Posts: 1510 | TRs | Pics
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Don't get me wrong, hydro is great, probably the best until fusion comes around, but 2-3x is clearly an exaggeration. The average fossil fuel state is about 1.4x our price.
Gb, the dropping costs of wind and solar are encouraging but their price rapidly increases (above those values) as grid penetration exceeds something like 30%, due to the increasing difficulty of managing erratic supply. In most places they are not close ready to take more than about 30% of the yearly load by themselves, and even at 0% still often lose to natural gas on price.
If the decreasing trend continues at this pace, then in the very near future 30% yearly load becomes realistic.
Vast changes or tech increases are required to ask them to take more than ~30%. I personally think that fusion will be ready before the storage required for erratic renewables to shoulder the entire load are ready.
Alas Hydro cannot be increased much... most of the easily available river power is already harnessed.
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:03 pm
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thunderhead wrote: | Don't get me wrong, hydro is great, probably the best until fusion comes around, but 2-3x is clearly an exaggeration. The average fossil fuel state is about 1.4x our price. |
Try giving GB links a read -- they give the generation cost averages for the USA -- for 2016 costs per kwh
Nuclear 25.36
Fossil Steam 36.08
Hydro-electric 10.98
Gas Turbine and Small Scale 30.19
Seems pretty close to 3x between hydro and coal/oil/gas to me!
Too bad solar figures aren't included.
thunderhead wrote: | probably the best until fusion comes around |
That's hilarious -- anyone suggesting fusion as an option is really just saying "do nothing, the status quo is fine".
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thunderhead Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2015 Posts: 1510 | TRs | Pics
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Too bad you said residential cost, which most certainly is not generation cost.
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thunderhead Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2015 Posts: 1510 | TRs | Pics
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And the current state of affairs is fine, at least for a while.
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:32 pm
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6303 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:39 pm
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12797 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:34 pm
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RandyHiker wrote: | Hawaii is 100% oil generation |
So.... the wind turbines are just for show?
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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