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Brushwork
Food truck
Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Posts: 508 | TRs | Pics
Location: Washington |
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Brushwork
Food truck
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 Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:53 pm |
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I don't think you can generalize about all "beginning" climbers. Some want to learn, some don't. Some really appreciate what they learned through the mountaineers. Some wouldn't be caught dead (excuse the pun) doing any thing with them. Look at how many people don't think it's important to carry 10 essentials or even some warm layers and generally you can get away with it.
Some people don't want to be educated. Even when we are educated (or skilled), we all occasionally do stupid things. I remember an old mountaineer saying that went something like this "Never let your judgement be swayed by desire". Hells bells, I know there were times we were just damn lucky....
Guess what I'm saying is that there's not a lot you can do about people's behavior.
When I grow up I wanna play.
When I grow up I wanna play.
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Malachai Constant
Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16093 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Alpine Climbing, Rock Climbing, Bouldering, Gym Climbing, Mountain Hiking, Ice Climbing, Speed Hiking, and Snow Sports are all different sports with different skill sets. There is some overlap but no greater than Football, Baseball, volleyball, Golf, and tennis which are all played with a ball. In Gym Climbing a poor choice of clothing only leads to possible embarrassment in Alpine Climbing or Hiking it can easily be lethal. The gyms have a duty to provide a safe venue for their clients and they never suggest they provide training for 8000 Meter peaks. Rescue beacons have been charged with giving false confidence but Iknow of no studies confirming this. I have a cell phone, GPS, and Avy beacons but consider them near useless if you fall off a cliff or are caught in a slide.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:23 pm |
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| Brushwork wrote: | | Guess what I'm saying is that there's not a lot you can do about people's behavior. |
No, there is not:
| Dave Workman, in another thread long ago wrote: | | Some people are world class stupid, and you can't fix that. |
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | I think the climbing community should mentor their young... err foster a culture that values the idea of the experienced helping the inexperienced.. |
That exists presently, in the form of The Mountaineers locally, and other climbing clubs around the world.
But new people have to be willing (and paying) participants in order to benefit from those organizations.
If you're talking about individual climbers, guys like Matt or Matt or Adam (or any number of other members here), it is not their responsibility, nor are they obligated, to "mentor" anyone unless they choose to do so. Just as it is not my responsibility to teach somebody how to ford a river or use a sumi brush or an Osmiroid calligraphy pen.
If, however, there are neophytes who are seeking help, and those who are more experienced are willing to help, that should be encouraged.
But the idea of requiring those with greater experience to invest themselves in the teaching of new people is antithetical to the reason many of us are out there in the first place: freedom and independence.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Silvatici
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Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
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| Ski wrote: | | Well.. that's all fine and well in theory, but the bottom line is that the urban "climbing gyms" are independently owned, for-profit, private business enterprises and their responsibility is to their stockholders (or owners, if not incorporated.)
Whether or not they choose to consider some of the suggestions made in the article you've cited depends entirely on the old "what's in it for us?" factor.
You cannot tell a private business how to run their show. |
Thanks for the clarification on how free-market capitalism works Ski, that's helpful. You're correct that we cannot tell a private business how to run their show, although as an aside I'll state that the degree to which private business tells us how to run our show in this country is distressing. I have some cursory knowledge of the indoor climbing industry and know that youth programs represent a substantial percentage of gym revenue. Frequent, well-publicized climbing accidents impacting parent's willingness to sign their little boogers up for climbing classes is just one answer to your posited question "What's in it for us?".
| Ski wrote: | | As for the "climbing community", it's a case of "you can lead a horse to water". Those who wish to be "mentored" will choose that route. Those who choose to learn by trial and error will learn the hard way. |
I think our disagreement stems partially from a fundamentally different view of the climbing community. Whereas you see a disjointed collection of partnerships and small groups, I see connections across a broader range and a shared culture. Upon honest reflection, I think we're both right to an extent, and your claim that there will always be random yahoos that slip through any safeguards we could put into place is true. That said, I do think that enough of a shared culture exists that meaningful change could be affected.
| Ski wrote: | | I guess I'm not really sure what it is about this subject that causes you to be so agitated about SAR operations plucking people out of predicaments that they might not have gotten into had they used better judgment. As I said above at least a couple times: people do dumb stuff. |
I'm not really sure what I said that came across as agitated and none of my disapproval was directed at the rescue, but rather the poor decision making that led to the need for one. This has been something that you have consistently misunderstood about my statements, as I've never once suggested that a rescue shouldn't be provided when requested, nor have I once mentioned as another person did that rescue organizations might consider charging people for rescues deemed to be superfluous. People, as you astutely observed, do dumb stuff. But we should tell people not to do dumb stuff, and when they do dumb stuff we should tell them it was dumb, and why. To be clear if I wasn't earlier, my proposal, if it can even be called that, would revolve around education, social pressure, and culture change, not bureaucracy and red-tape.
| Ski wrote: | | But again, it is not the responsibility of "the climbing community" to handhold (or police) knuckleheads who choose to tackle 12000-foot peaks in denim jeans and tennis shoes, nor is it the responsibility of urban "climbing gyms" to provide any more than a place for people to climb up man-made walls inside buildings. |
I guess it depends on what you mean by responsibility. That kid on Adams likely passed a large number of people that knew he was setting himself up for a potentially life-threatening situation yet said nothing. Anyone who is or who has spent much time around firearms enthusiasts knows that pointing even an unloaded gun at someone is a really big no-no. If it became normal for climbers to have a similar universal, aversive reaction to people climbing who are clearly unprepared, would some of these outcomes be different? The scorn of one's peers seems to me to be wildly preferable to the scorn of the mountain.
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
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Pahoehoe
Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
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Pahoehoe
Member
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Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:32 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | If you're talking about individual climbers, guys like Matt or Matt or Adam (or any number of other members here), it is not their responsibility, nor are they obligated, to "mentor" anyone unless they choose to do so. Just as it is not my responsibility to teach somebody how to ford a river or use a sumi brush or an Osmiroid calligraphy pen.
If, however, there are neophytes who are seeking help, and those who are more experienced are willing to help, that should be encouraged.
But the idea of requiring those with greater experience to invest themselves in the teaching of new people is antithetical to the reason many of us are out there in the first place: freedom and independence. |
I am not talking about "requiring". That wouldn't be possible. Im suggesting that the community make it part of the culture that you help and mentor or do something for the greater good.
Make it uncool not to...
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
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Pahoehoe
Member
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Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:40 pm |
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| Silvatici wrote: | | I guess it depends on what you mean by responsibility. That kid on Adams likely passed a large number of people that knew he was setting himself up for a potentially life-threatening situation yet said nothing. Anyone who is or who has spent much time around firearms enthusiasts knows that pointing even an unloaded gun at someone is a really big no-no. If it became normal for climbers to have a similar universal, aversive reaction to people climbing who are clearly unprepared, would some of these outcomes be different? The scorn of one's peers seems to me to be wildly preferable to the scorn of the mountain |
Some random stranger having an opinion about anothers actions, clothing choice, gear choice, route choice, etc is just going to piss people off a lot of the time.
Mt Adams dude wasnt likely to give a rip he was wearing the wrong clothes because he didnt understand he was likely to (and would) fall and get stranded on ice over night.
You have to get to them before that. He wouldnt have turned around.
In the climbing gym scenario, experienced climbers could offer to take the strong but inexperienced climbers on their first alpine climb and choose a suitable location and make sure they have proper gear, etc.
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:58 pm |
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| Silvatici wrote: | | "...the degree to which private business tells us how to run our show in this country is distressing..." |
Why do you allow private businesses to "run your show"? And how does that manifest itself?
Nobody "runs my show" except me.
As to the rest of your comment above:
The frequency of publication of climbing accidents depends upon the publishers' willingness and ability to broadcast the message. Climbing accidents might not be the lead story that day- the program manager makes that decision for radio or television, and in print media it's an editor. Those are decisions made by paid employees of private business enterprises, and those decisions are based on (1) the ability to score higher in "ratings" and/or (2) potential for increasing advertising revenue. What you might consider to be important means absolutely nothing in that process.
Whether or not parents of children considering signing up their children for climbing classes pay even the least bit of attention to stories in the news is another question entirely. Not everyone is plugged in to broadcast news (whether electronic or print) - some people simply tune it out or are more occupied with other things in real life.
The "climbing community" and the "gun community" have very little in common.
Ask a dozen people here on this site, and most likely eleven of them will tell you "Hike your own hike." (HYOH is the acronym commonly used here.) If people want to hike up trails wearing flip-flops, cotton t-shirts and cut-off jeans, that's their business.
I would submit that the majority of the membership here on this site, if you were to comment on the gear they were hauling or how they were dressed, would tell you to mind your own damn business, or simply ignore you and keep walking. Hike your own hike.
But hey, if you believe that the answer is to start confronting people out in the wild and telling them how they're doing it all wrong, feel free to do so. Let us know how that works out for you.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:40 am |
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| Silvatici wrote: | | "...my proposal, if it can even be called that, would revolve around education, social pressure, and culture change, not bureaucracy and red-tape..." |
Who is responsible for this "education"? nwhikers.net? WTA? REI? Dick's Sporting Goods?
As I said a couple times, The Mountaineers (and many other hiking/climbing organizations around the world) offer educational programs for hiking and climbing, kayaking, and other outdoor activities.
Those educational opportunities are there - they require only willing (and usually paying) participants.
Where is this "social pressure" and "culture change" supposed to come from? nwhikers.net? WTA? REI? Dick's Sporting Goods?
Again, we're back to the "hike your own hike" credo. There are certainly efforts made by some in this regard, but they're generally of a token nature or a small portion of a marketing effort (by outdoor gear retailers) intended to convince people they need to buy more stuff.
There are, apparently, some efforts being made on social media venues like Facebook and Instagram, but those are probably lost in a maelstrom of selfies and photoshopped images of alpine lakes with off-leash dogs swimming in them.
Public lands management agencies make efforts to inform people about hazards in the outdoors and encourage them to be prepared, but there are no requirements for visitors of National Parks and National Forests to pay any attention to that information.
Again, we're back to the "you can lead a horse to water" thing. The information is out there if people want to seek it out. There are no shortages of information sources available to those willing to put forth the effort to find them.
The problem is that there are a lot of people who are just plain stupid. Mr. "Pebbles" ponytail should be enough evidence of that. I've cited a few other examples above. As Mr. Workman so astutely pointed out years ago, you can't fix that.
Some people are going to attempt to reach beyond their grasp. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. No amount of education, social pressure, or culture change is going to change that dynamic. We are encouraged from birth to achieve - to reach beyond our grasp. It's how babies learn to walk. It's how children learn how to ride bicycles. After they've fallen down enough times, they get the hang of it.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:45 am |
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| Silvatici wrote: | | This group made several poor choices leading up to their predicament that "duly experienced alpinists" would not have made. |
You lack sufficient information to draw that conclusion. Experienced capable alpinists sometimes get off route.
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Stefan-K
Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 522 | TRs | Pics
Location: seattle |
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Stefan-K
Member
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Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:59 am |
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Thanks for keeping it civil, courteous, and down to earth Silvatici. Your patience is astounding!
You've made your point well. Maybe too well...
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Silvatici
Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2018
Posts: 35 | TRs | Pics
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| Stefan-K wrote: | | Thanks for keeping it civil, courteous, and down to earth Silvatici. Your patience is astounding!
You've made your point well. Maybe too well... |
Appreciate you saying so Stefan-K. Some people, it seems, are a little limited in their thinking.
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
“The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heartbreaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.”
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics
Location: here now |
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DIYSteve
seeking hygge
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Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:05 pm |
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| Silvatici wrote: | | Some people, it seems, are a little limited in their thinking. |
That's quite ironic from the guy making wild unsupported assumptions re the experience of the rescued party
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12832 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:28 pm |
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Here's some more water you can lead your horse to:
Outdoor Leadership Training: Leaders attend a training with either WTA or The Mountaineers that is specific to the activity they want to do with their kids. So, whether you want to take your kids hiking, camping, or snowshoeing, there's a training for you to give you the tools you need for a successful outing.
WTA - Backpacking 101: Planning your trip
Of course, those who are less inclined to do the homework beforehand will just peruse Instagram and Facebook posts, or idiotic Logan Paul videos and say "Hey, I can do that!" and head out the door in their cotton shorts and flip-flops.
Silvatici, what you're talking about is out there, but some people are just too stupid or too lazy to bother with it.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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jared_j
Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 298 | TRs | Pics
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jared_j
Member
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Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:46 pm |
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| slabbyd wrote: | | A similar rescue occurred just a couple years ago on the northeast ridge of Black Peak (which is easy) where one of the rescued definitely had a quote along the lines of "It wasn't the same as the gym." |
4th class ain't the same as V4
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