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WaState
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 6:14 am 
If off trail and only using backtracking navagation and in thick woods. I would not go very far in an unkown direction, for instince if I lost the trail. A good way to leave your bones in the woods, if in deep wooded country. Heck I was on a open big boulder field with twp guys looking for our camp, we knew where we were aproxmatly on a mountain side in the tetons. It took us two extra hours to find camp. Even in that fairly open conditon it was hard to see far enough to navagate. Also had another similar situation in deep woods off of Luna peak in the cascades, deep woods, at night could not find camp. Had a waypoint with gps, but stupid thing wouldn't work well enough, altimeter was off 200+ feet due to changing weather. Was about to give up until morning when luckily we stumbled over camp in deep dark woods. These examples were with experience people with multiple types of navigation gear. If only using back tracking for navigation, if at night, I suggest strongly to wait until morning at the the first moment of getting lost, especially if not that experienced. I myself know it is not that hard to get lost if going in an unknown direction for some time. As soon as I am not sure , I stop and start looking and thinking, finding that last known point --- in daylight, at night it gets much harder. For me I can imagine spending half the night getting totally lost, then when daylight trying to follow my sign back to my last last known point or trail, sweating bullets, very afraid I will lose my backtrailing sign. Of if along a known feature such as a stream, that is different. If on a known trail that is different with a working light. Even with map , compass and altimeter you need to figure where your at and that can be very hard if turned around in deep woods. The reality is one can have a hard time going cross country in the cascades even if you know where you are at in daylight. 1/4 mile an hour is the speed I have traveled before at great effert in the right direction in daylight!! If getting lost at night in the woods , fairly soon, right away, sitting and waiting until morning is a good blanket rule ( if without working gps). If an experienced person does otherwise they most certainly should know what they are doing. Maybe leaving extra back trail sign as they go along...... The next morning, then go back uphill, circle around or backtrack etc the goal is to find the trail or last known point before getting lost. As we can imagine the closer the trail or known point the more easy to find. By the way travelling off trail is usually much slower, especially at night. In other words if someone panics thrashing off trail at night in the woods they likely to go far enough to get totally lost, but not near far enough to get back to the car.

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 7:51 am 
pushkarwallah wrote:
Flag if necessary. I always carry flagging and vet wrap.
Flagging routes is illegal in wilderness. Please do not do it.

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WaState
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 8:02 am 
I can imagine an interesting experiment. Set up a station at one of the more popular day hiking spots. Such as as Pilchuck lookout mt in the cascades. Ask people questions such as navigation gear, ask about navigation skills and gear for emergency night out etc. Last time I was on mt Pilchuck this past early summer, it was a circus. The last 1000+ feet of elevation was snow. Several people people in tennis shoes, no trekking poles slipping and slidding all over the place. Many people with little gear. I myself had enough for emergency overnight. Story deleted due to social censership. . In any case I watched over a couple of nice human blobs with no trekking poles and tennis shoes that slipped and slid off the peak until off the snow. I offered one , a trekking pole but declined. It is a wonder SAR is not even more busy!!

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 8:34 am 
WaState wrote:
A white guy coming up in tennis shoes, while I was coming down , he had cut off blue jene shorts, and no shirt, nothing else, but had a cell phone, we met at snow line. Asked me if we saw a black girl in a blaze orange coat???
Why are you reporting on the race of the people you encounter in the mountains? Do you think it matters to your story?

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WaState
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 8:43 am 
Quote:
Why are you reporting on the race of the people you encounter in the mountains? Do you think it matters to your story
Ahh so you have your opening to attack, very quick as well. So I will say i am sorry, and will delete the post. The only offencive reference now is your qoute.

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WaState
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 9:27 am 
Quote:
Do you think it matters to your story?
In truth I thought it made the story far more intresting, that is all. Not a slight on any group of of people. Anyway the post is gone now.

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Kascadia
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 11:05 am 
https://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8026810&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

It is as though I had read a divine text, written into the world itself, not with letters but rather with essential objects, saying: Man, stretch thy reason hither, so thou mayest comprehend these things. Johannes Kepler
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williswall
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 12:27 pm 
I'm not sure why you repeat yourself over and over on this one topic that was referenced in the prior threads. You recount seeing people you consider unprepared; what has this to do with back tracking? And if someone were at a busy trail head and asked me "what would I do if....." etc I would politely blow them off. This is not the way to "teach" someone. I think you've made your point adequately about back tracking and its importance to you. Again.

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SwitchbackFisher
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PostSat Sep 22, 2018 9:57 pm 
You really need to lay this backtracking thing to rest. First you talk about how unprepared people are while bringing race into it stated in a way that leads the reader to believe that has to do with there skills and capabilities in the woods. Then advocate your blazing plants clearly violating leave no trace principles. I would say if you need to break branches and blaze which you have already admitted to then you probably are unprepared and should learn better navigation skills before you get yourself in over your head.

I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Bernardo
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 7:39 am 
WaState wrote:
Hello . An idea for a very simple educational project to hopefully to cut down on the number of people that get lost and possibly go missing. On ocassion ask people you know inexperienced or lightly experienced in hiking on what they would do if they lost the main trail or their way while hiking in the woods, see what responses you get. Reflect on these responses . I myself then give a basic lesson on backtracking skills. Then of course I talk about maps, compasses and gps, having some llight emergency gear. This may cut down some those missing people stories.
Going back to WaState's original post, I think I understand now what he was saying. The "project" he is suggesting is simply initiating conversations with people you know who will go hiking and who are inexperienced about how to find their way in the woods. This conversation would raise the possibility that a person could find themselves off trail even if they never intended to leave the trail. I would agree that such conversations are a good idea when someone is in a mentor role or is the organizer of a hike. When I go out in the woods with someone I'll often discuss the lay of the land where we are going and say such things as: You can't be more than a few miles from a road in this area, if you walk in a straight line you will hit a road The streams in this area all lead to trails To get out of here you need to head south If you head up you will hit a ridge, if you follow the ridge up you will come to a trail at the summit Here's a compass, amazingly the needle always points north, you can use this to walk in a straight line Here's a map I printed for you or If I drop dead you'll find a map in my pack So I think WaState has good intentions and he is suggesting it's a good practice to share your knowledge of navigating where you can do so to help people along the learning curve. Another reason I discuss navigation is because I find people are anxious if they don't know where they are and that makes the experience less enjoyable. Also, as I've joked before, how are you going to call in artillery or air support if you don't know where you are? I agree that the consesus and regulations have changed and leaving markings is no longer appropriate in most cases.

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WaState
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PostMon Sep 24, 2018 7:07 am 
First off I do admit I repeat myself quite a bit, but I do input new information at times as well. To my mind different people, ie new people on the board, on a thread may be able to pick up information. I thought maybe the title of my thread would cover those not interested in this subject, ie if not interested in a backtracking teaching project , then bypass the thread. Right??? In any case some say backtracking is instinctive. I think this is likely true for some people, but I think for many people it needs to be taught at some level. In the very old days there were no maps and compasses, or gps, for native peoples. They used backtracking skills, and memory for all navagation. They had to use backtracking at first in an unknown area to gain the memory for later on. They may have used the stars to some degree, but this is unusable in bad weather. It is my opinion backtracking should be taught first as a navagation skill. For instince do parents give children map, altimeter, compass, gps, etc to play in a local forest, or patch of woods? For those of us lucky enough to have in the woods play time, backtracking is more likely to be intinctive. For those who grew up in the city kind of enviroment, this kind of navagation can be much harder. To give some proof that backtracking is not instinctive for many, in reponse to someone suggesting that it is instinctive. I suggest it is possible to do a study on a trail head, or simply asking people you know, --hopefully in a kindly helpful manner. Also do some day hikes on popular mountain trails and try to judge if you think the people are knowledgable. Two types of teaching, for the instructor , as well for the student.

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WaState
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PostMon Sep 24, 2018 7:30 am 
By the way , I consiider backtracking as a "gateway" navagation skill, the student will likely be hungry for all kinds of navagation skills. Believe me , I use Everything if I plan to go out on a extended trip.

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williswall
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PostMon Sep 24, 2018 10:38 am 
Your point is well taken. Just a suggestion, you might want to spell navigation correctly for credibility, considering how many times you reference it.

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Bernardo
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PostMon Sep 24, 2018 6:13 pm 
So I just did a little experiment with my high school age daughter who has no special hiking skills. I asked her, "Bernadina, if you were walking on a trail in the woods and all of a sudden you realized you weren't on the trail anymore, what would you do?" She looked at me funny trying to discern if this was a trick question. Then she responded, "Turn around and try to retrace my steps." "Thanks," I said, "that makes sense." (Not her real name, but a true account.)

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WaState
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PostMon Sep 24, 2018 7:34 pm 
Quote:
So I just did a little experiment with my high school age daughter who has no special hiking skills. I asked her, "Bernadina, if you were walking on a trail in the woods and all of a sudden you realized you weren't on the trail anymore, what would you do?" She looked at me funny trying to discern if this was a trick question. Then she responded, "Turn around and try to retrace my steps." "Thanks," I said, "that makes sense." (Not her real name, but a true account.)
I believe you, the great thing about this that anyone can do this and find out for themself.

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