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PostMon Sep 24, 2018 11:53 am 
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Please keep this topic within the boundaries of stewardship. Feel free to link alternative discussions below in this wiki post but do NOT spam this topic with such discussion or invite requests.  Such posts will be deleted.

Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Washington/comments/9erxip/sam_sayers_still_missing_in_washington/
2nd Reddit Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/9hc0em/missing_hiker_on_vesper_peak_chaos_in_the_cascades/
Teton Gravity:  https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/321860
Facebook:  Official page and alternative facebook group no longer public

New Facebook study group created by Steve Monchak on 10/8  The Truth of the Sam Sayers Case
https://www.facebook.com/groups/698480987181194/ (no longer public on 11/8/18, reappeared as a closed group 12/7/18)


Wiki summmary last edited by Windstorm on Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:00 pm (this post can be edited by any member)
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grannypanties
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Actions speak louder than words:
The IAP contained environmental protection wording.
Are the operation principals abiding by the IAP?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10160840070715254&set=pcb.232228334316335&type=3&theater&ifg=1
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pula58
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 1:28 pm 
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From Post by Kevin Dares (Facebook):

"Can’t help it Melanie the grass is just so comfy. But for real they’ll hate on that lil joke. We are doing everything in our power to be environmentally favorable and yet balance it with finding Sam.
There is a small group at some hiking groups that hate us but I could care exactly zero.
This is about recovering someone and bringing closure.
Let their negativity fester within themselves. It’s not shaming anyone in this crew"


They confuse concern for the alpine ecosystem up on Vesper with hatred. This is ironic given the so-called "Love and light" mind set. On the FSS facebook pages associated with this body search If you bring up a valid concern, your post is deleted.

His post also shows ignorance in conflating grass with heather.


I think this "search" sets a dangerous precedent of sacrificing the environment and public commons for the search of a single (deceased) person. If this kind of thing gains momentum in our society we will see more of this kind of "operation relentless pursuit" happen. To me, the way this search is being enacted presents a kind of property-rights "I'll do whatever I want, try to stop me" kind of thing. Like the Bundys, and like the occupation in Oregon of the building in the wildlife refuge.

wildlife refuge occupation

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Schroder
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
If you enlarge the photo put up by Bramble_Scramble on 9/20 on this page of the old thread,  you can see the big white tent on the far ridge, between the two largest trees.

This is where that looks like to me

Base Camp
Base Camp

The only thing missing in that photo is a big fire ring in front of the tent for it to be a great poster of everything you shouldn't do
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Anne Elk
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 2:34 pm 
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In re the food donations being left at the trailhead,
pahoehoe wrote:
Suppisively[sic] someone donated a metal box.

I doubt that improves the situation. For anyone reading this thread unfamiliar with backcountry food safety: A Brief History of Bear Proofing in Yosemite
grannypanties wrote:
The IAP contained environmental protection wording. Are the operation principals abiding by the IAP?

From what I recall of the IAP when it was put up on the public FB page, the wording was pretty general. Given previous behaviors and the observed state of their old campsites in Wirtz Basin, unless the FS gave them specific instructions, (or even if they did), there's a lot to be concerned about, including visiting east coast volunteers (with alleged SAR experience) who are being advised to used the trailhead as a campsite:
Quote:
from public SS FB page:
Dan Michael: Good morning, it looks like I'll be arriving Sunday night to Seattle from Memphis then hit Vesper Trailhead Monday morning...Would anyone like to Search with me? I plan on being there for 3 days and I will make my way up to the command center which I'll probably just camp there if they'll let me.
Chelsey Fresquez: There aren't many campsites up there and it appears the base camp has taken all the available spots ... Trailhead camping will probably work, though...

Not intending to cast aspersions on SAR-trained folk here, just have no insight re LNT principles as a backcountry ethic vis a vis SAR training.  Seems that lower elevation camping might be a greater bear risk than the high altitude camp.

I was on the Olympic NP beaches recently and the NPS registration office in Port Angeles has a stock of around 200 bear canisters to lend to campers for free (required equipment).

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EJ
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 3:28 pm 
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Found this gem on the 49th parallel instagram account:

A fire and a smoke
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Schroder
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 5:29 pm 
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EJ wrote:
Found this gem on the 49th parallel instagram account:

You have to give them credit for not digging a fire pit.
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treeswarper
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Maybe they should helicopter a potty up there.

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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
I was on the Olympic NP beaches recently and the NPS registration office in Port Angeles has a stock of around 200 bear canisters to lend to campers for free (required equipment).

Bear canisters are needed on the beaches for raccoons more than anything.
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 8:16 pm 
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burck17 wrote:
AlpineRose wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Suppisively someone donated a metal box.

The clueless 49th parallel bunch is being as careless with their food as with their campsite(s).  So I hope the metal box is bear proof.  As well, bear proof storage should be required at the "command center".  If one or more bears get habituated, bear/human conflicts are inevitable.  The rambos may be armed, which implies their willingness shoot anything that threatens them.  But most hikers and climbers are not.  Nor do most hikers and climbers  carry bear spray.

Your jumping to a lot of conclusions here. I am in complete agreement with you about the base camp not being a good idea. And about the habituation of bears being bad. But I think you are unfairly generalizing the “ rambos” being armed and their “ willingness” to shoot anything. I know I carry a gun on me in the woods as a hiker climber also and only will use it as a last resort in self defense. I often see others hiking with guns.

Again I’m not saying what’s happening on the mountain is right, but more of trying to get at making these sweeping generalizations does not add any value to the conversation.

Did you not watch the video where Bud Garuda Carr threatened just about everyone?  The guy is a felon and nobody should feel safe with him on that mountain and armed.
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AlpineRose
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 8:34 pm 
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And they would need a fire pit, why?  That tent stove looks quite functional.  In any case, does anyone know the source of the wood for the stove (or any firepits they actually have sense enough not to show in photos)?

Shroder, thanks for posting the probable location of the "command center", and AnneE for reposting the Bramble Scramble photo.  It would seem to be juuuust inside the FS boundary, not the Rec Area.  Also, it appears to be located right on the main Vesper scramble route.  So curious Vesper hikers would walk past to get a good look.  The unaware ones - those not following the story - would stumble upon it.  The wary would stay away, maybe choose to climb Sperry instead.
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Fallaway
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Edit: Sorry - not having success with links or quotes. This is in response to Ski's question: "Fallaway, you linked to one image which shows a small snip of the yellow caution tape on top of a rock. Are there other photos of these bags (or their contents) available? Can you post them here or link to them?"

That's all I've got, I'm afraid. Someone shared these pictures on another forum and I knew the stewardship discussion was underway here, so wanted to share the information given that I'm aware there's been concern over the fate of the survival baggies and their contents. I can't personally vouch for who saw these, or when. There were a couple of other pictures that I didn't grab links for, but I think they were the same bag.
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Ski
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 8:45 pm 
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thanks Fallaway.
I have some concerns about those "survival bags" and their contents being strewn all over the place by critters.
Aside from "litter", the possibility of bears finding them brings up another issue.

AlpineRose wrote:
"... does anyone know the source of the wood for the stove..."

^ Really good question. Did they helicopter in firewood? Or are they packing it up the hill?
Given that Mr. Carr stated quite plainly in one of his videos he'd like to take a chainsaw and cut down all the trees up there, the installation of the wood stove does raise some concerns.

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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 8:53 pm 
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The wood in EJ’s pix looks scrounged certainly not bought camp wood or presto logs.

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Anne Elk
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Ski wrote:
I have some concerns about those "survival bags" and their contents being strewn all over the place by critters. Aside from "litter", the possibility of bears finding them brings up another issue.

Has anyone ever heard of bear encounters (or evidence thereof) on the high side of Headlee Pass? That would surprise me (a lot o'nothin' up there to be on a bear's forage route). The Stilly drainage is more problematic. Some of those bags are probably off-trail in there, never to be retrieved.

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EJ
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PostSun Sep 23, 2018 9:54 pm 
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The wood is scrounged dead wood, according to either one of the live videos by the mom or one of the recent status posts on the FSS facebook page.

I personally feel that even though it's "dead wood", it is very much a part of the ecosystem!
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