Forum Index > Trail Talk > USFS to start requiring permits for 3 Oregon wildernesses in 2020
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Randito
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 2:35 pm 
thunderhead wrote:
IE the longer you go without winning, the more likely you are to win the next year.
I agree that makes sense. Maybe also include extra points for being an old fart so people have a better chance of getting a permit before their knees / back / etc can no longer hack the approach.

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thunderhead
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PostTue Nov 20, 2018 3:09 pm 
Its a great way to make you feel like even though you didn't win, you accomplished something. I know I didnt get a permit this year, but I am up to 3 points and once you get 4 points its basically a grantee, etc... And ya, maybe free permits for SAR and the poor rangers who clean the bathrooms...

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DIYSteve
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PostWed Nov 21, 2018 12:53 pm 
joker wrote:
I certainly don't think social media will break the wilderness. But I do think that the way its currently tending to be used has a tendency to create some ultra concentrations of use on some places that really show the wear, rather than helping disperse the use. I expect that in a few decades the emerging norms around avoiding things like location tagging of pretty photos of as yet "undiscovered" gems will be more prevalent and just as expected by the mainstream user as not burning or burying your trash while backpacking (which was SOP for many when I was a child). There are better ways to motivate more people to get outdoors than instagram trophy hunts.
I agree with all points. The silver lining of use concentration in popularized spots and resultant lack of dispersion: The places that escape social media exposure are protected from the mobs who only go to popular places. Compare the Bulger100 craze started by the Summit Routes books. The Bulger100 standard routes saw increased traffic, but IME traffic seemed to ease on off-trail routes elsewhere. Also, social media provides info re what's popular with the In Crowd. My strategy is to zig while the mobs zag, thus I have had no problem finding solitude in serene high places in the WA Cascades and Olympics.

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RodF
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PostThu Nov 22, 2018 2:37 pm 
water wrote:
Instead they think they're going to lock down 79 trailheads... Meanwhile they've decommissioned tons of miles of trails in Mt. Jefferson Wilderness over the last 20 years.
Amen. Olympic NP has abandoned 240 miles of trails, listed here, a third of its original trail system. Originally envisioned as "a wilderness park... a trail park", hundreds of miles of additional trails were planned, but only a dozen miles were built. Instead of new trails, Olympic NP proposes permits and quotas on day hiking! (Last year, Olympic NP spent $3.4 million of visitor fee revenue modernizing its visitor center, six times its trail maintenance budget, enough to build 30 miles of new trails.) Yosemite Valley and Zion are small places. But the Cascades are not. Yellowstone is not. Olympic is not. Access (trails and trailheads) is not the problem, it is the solution to dispersing visitors to countless sites few ever see in areas few ever visit.
water wrote:
So the flip side of this could be, no social media, and.. you have an entire generation of people who don't begin to get into the outdoors at all?
"I believe very strongly that continued protection of our wilderness National Parks depends on the active support of visitors, hikers, and climbers who act as champions for our National Parks. If we make access substantially more difficult we reduce the number of visitors and ultimately the numbers of citizens and taxpayers who know enough about these parks to want to protect them." - Sen. Daniel J. Evans, sponsor of the Washington Parks Wilderness Act of 1988.

"of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt" - John Muir "the wild is not the opposite of cultivated. It is the opposite of the captivated” - Vandana Shiva
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BigBrunyon
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PostFri Nov 23, 2018 12:51 pm 
You either gotta get the permit, don't go, or sneak in

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water
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water
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PostFri Nov 23, 2018 2:25 pm 
sneak? lol I will never be 'sneaking' in to climb mt jefferson's west rib at 3am on a saturday in late may or going in pole creek to climb north sister. Sorry, passing through undeveloped public lands to climb a peak that sees very little traffic isn't something one should need permission to do.

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Joseph
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PostFri Nov 23, 2018 2:30 pm 
water wrote:
the social media hate is kind of funny and reflects as much on the people complaining about it as whatever is inherently bad with social media. You can phrase it like this if it helps you put it in better context. To set the scene you're talking to someone who is 19 right now: "Sonny, when I was your age we didn't have those confangled gadgets, just a sextant and a mercury barometers! And a horse that I was too poor to ride on dragged me to the trailhead by my suspenders. It's very wrong you like to take technology and connectivity with you when you are getting physical exercise in the wilderness! We would be much better off if you just let us old generation enjoy the wilderness until we died and then nobody more would go there!" fwiw I'm getting towards my late 30's. That's how the social media hate sounds. I even hear it from people my age. It's incredibly trendy to hate social media, and convenient. "oh it's popular? I hate it!" But welcome to reality. It's here, it isn't going anywhere. It'll evolve. So the flip side of this could be, no social media, and.. you have an entire generation of people who don't begin to get into the outdoors at all? That's the better proposition? Sorry, the way people use the outdoors has evolved through time too. Just because a new generation wants to bring tech with them doesn't mean they can't get educated to still treat places right. Way to trash your co-worker who knew about colchuck and Enchantments all the way from Ohio and recognized how gorgeous it is and wanted to see it for herself, even if it was entirely motivated by narcissistic social media likes. So what. Maybe you'd prefer they talk to you about a mindless sitcom?? So what if her plan was uninformed. I'll take an under-informed person who has greater awareness of the world over someone so small minded they don't know about anything beyond their backyard. As for this entire plan, it's a joke and stupid, arbitrary, putative caps. The short and sweet is that for 13-15 days a year at peak of summer, a handful of trails are wildly popular. There's almost no enforcement now with existing regs and laws that directly address the issues. There's definitely some habitat issues with people camping in areas--but that's still wildly improved from 20 years ago around Green Lakes and Jeff Park. There's some feces issues. Install a pit toilet or two like they have in Enchantments? Minimal trash. Solitude is a relative thing.. If you don't like busy, don't go at peak times? Instead they think they're going to lock down 79 trailheads. And claim that fees will fund increased enforcement. Meanwhile they've decommissioned tons of miles of trails in Mt. Jefferson Wilderness over the last 20 years. Instead of seeing increased visitors as a mandate to increase recreational opportunities and step up enforcement of existing laws and regs (all already there..big potential fines for breaking them)..they think this online permit bullsh## will save the wilderness. A permit doesn't do jack to change culture of how people treat a place. It's as silly as thinking the online social media will break the wilderness. this plan is as dumb as getting a gastric bypass when you're 10lbs overweight and haven't done anything less invasive to try to lose weight.
"Sonny, let me explain to you what a straw man argument is...."

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joker
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PostFri Nov 23, 2018 4:58 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
Instagram hikers are a thing, but I'm not in the camp that it is a bad thing, rather I'm encouraged by the fact that a new generation values the outdoors and "real experiences" and hasn't succumbed to living a completely "virtual life" and doesn't care whether places like "Bears Ears" are opened to oil production.
I agree that inspiring more people to get out is good. Helping them know how to minimize impacts and how to find their own adventures (and to advocate for preservation and conservation) is even better and I have faith that social media, which is of course created by people who have the capacity to learn and to evolve their creations, as well as the way people use it, will eventually help more with those latter things.

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water
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water
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PostSat Nov 24, 2018 3:13 am 
Joseph wrote:
There are other factors: social media blasting to the world where all the cool wilderness sites are. Massive influx of young Millennials with extra $$ to spend at REI and free time to go hiking and take selfies which they post on social media so other narcissistic fools can go there and do the same. "Sonny, let me explain to you what a straw man argument is...."
You can say that, but I did directly address your insipid and exaggerated comment.. hating on social media and blaming to the depth (or shallowness in your case) it is such a lame out. It's like suggesting radios made kids get too wild by having them all be able to learn about rock n roll. The thing is that younger people are very interested health and fun experiences, many of them saddled with debt, so the outdoors is an authentic experience in itself, even if they're sold an image through consumerism and social media back in the city, the experience when they're out is still real and grounded, literally. They like the outdoors. This is a very good thing for the future of our public lands. That social media has made it more popular is kind of irrelevant in a lot of ways, especially long term. How's the longevity of eating tide-pods due to social media right now vs ppl who will continue to go to the outdoors through whatever iterations of instagram and the next platforms and eventually get to a place where they tire of the social media but still have a love for going to places? rhetorical questions, and again this proposal is like jumping to a risky invasive surgical option when diet and exercise is what a doctor would first recommend for a health condition. The FS seems to be taking a very adversarial position with the public at large instead of concentrating their efforts on the few problem places and being adversarial with problem actors.

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Joseph
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PostSat Nov 24, 2018 9:58 am 
water wrote:
Joseph wrote:
There are other factors: social media blasting to the world where all the cool wilderness sites are. Massive influx of young Millennials with extra $$ to spend at REI and free time to go hiking and take selfies which they post on social media so other narcissistic fools can go there and do the same. "Sonny, let me explain to you what a straw man argument is...."
You can say that, but I did directly address your insipid and exaggerated comment.. hating on social media and blaming to the depth (or shallowness in your case) it is such a lame out. It's like suggesting radios made kids get too wild by having them all be able to learn about rock n roll. The thing is that younger people are very interested health and fun experiences, many of them saddled with debt, so the outdoors is an authentic experience in itself, even if they're sold an image through consumerism and social media back in the city, the experience when they're out is still real and grounded, literally. They like the outdoors. This is a very good thing for the future of our public lands. That social media has made it more popular is kind of irrelevant in a lot of ways, especially long term. How's the longevity of eating tide-pods due to social media right now vs ppl who will continue to go to the outdoors through whatever iterations of instagram and the next platforms and eventually get to a place where they tire of the social media but still have a love for going to places? rhetorical questions, and again this proposal is like jumping to a risky invasive surgical option when diet and exercise is what a doctor would first recommend for a health condition. The FS seems to be taking a very adversarial position with the public at large instead of concentrating their efforts on the few problem places and being adversarial with problem actors.
Is this what the millennials refer to as "triggered"?

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BigBrunyon
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PostSat Nov 24, 2018 11:21 am 
water wrote:
sneak? lol I will never be 'sneaking' in to climb mt jefferson's west rib at 3am on a saturday in late may or going in pole creek to climb north sister. Sorry, passing through undeveloped public lands to climb a peak that sees very little traffic isn't something one should need permission to do.
Thats how it is when hiking in contruvershal locales!! Keep those headlamps dim!!!

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RumiDude
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PostSat Nov 24, 2018 11:23 am 
Can we stop with all this "millennial" talk. All of these supposed identifiable generations are contrived. Humans have not changed much for millennia. What has changed is technology. Of course consultants and such make lots of money with books and speaking engagements telling us how the new generation is soooooo different than what has come before. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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joker
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PostSat Nov 24, 2018 5:21 pm 
Some things about people stay the same. But generations do tend to in since ways reflect the social and economic conditions seen in their more formative years. That said I have seen many naive analyses along the lines of "this young generation is more rebellious than prior generations" which simply aren't factoring in the typical changes that occur with aging. In any case I think you're right that focusing on millennials here is a bit of a distraction

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water
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 10:36 am 
Joseph wrote:
Is this what the millennials refer to as "triggered"?
Yes, absolutely. When someone responds to a comment they disagree with, they are definitely triggered!!! Millennials have been getting triggered since Usenet and 2400 baud modems on BBS my friend! Even Socrates was getting triggered hard back in the day! I am not a frequent poster on nwhikers but it is clear you're one of the more insightful and productive contributors here. Keep up the excellent discourse.

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Joseph
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PostSun Nov 25, 2018 10:37 am 
RumiDude wrote:
Can we stop with all this "millennial" talk. All of these supposed identifiable generations are contrived. Humans have not changed much for millennia. What has changed is technology. Of course consultants and such make lots of money with books and speaking engagements telling us how the new generation is soooooo different than what has come before. Rumi
I disagree. While humans are basically the same where it counts, there are specific differences between millennials (and younger) related to use of technology in ways relevant to the topic which is over use of wilderness. Go look at the Wa. Hikers and Climbers FB page - festooned with all sorts of photos/selfies - shouting from the mountain tops "look at this cool hike I went on" - a summons to all the others on social media to check it out. And word spreads and this contributes to the increase in use. I think older gens are less likely to use social media (also Instragram) in this way. Whereas info used to spread via a much more slowly "word of mouth" - I might tell some of my hiker friends about a cool place - now it spreads like wildfire where people post photos and an exponential # of strangers see the cool place. Mind you, the cat is out of the bag, and they all bring their dogs who swim in the lakes and traipse around the meadows, often off leash (and they all have dogs, it seems). There is nothing we can do about it. I guess I'm lamenting it all. Harvey Manning must be turning over in his grave.

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