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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 12:07 pm 
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kevperro wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people.


That sort of policy is largely symbolic.   We foster kids and work at a homeless shelter.   Those living in poverty get zero benefits from free entrance to National Parks.   What they need are basic services and programs to move them out of poverty. 

So draw the line where you wish, but the people who most need help are not impacted one iota by entrance fees to National Parks.   In fact, since it is a resource that is funded by our taxes, and used more by upper-income groups, it is in effect regressive in nature.   

I for one see no issue with user fees that are reasonable to maintain our public lands.   The most efficient way to manage resources is to charge fees to the groups who most utilize the asset.   That is why I like gas taxes or carbon taxes.    You directly attach a fee to the utilization of the resource and those who use it, pay for it in proportion to the value they place upon it.

I don't think this is true.  Sure, a family in crisis and literally homeless isnt likely to visit a national park, but plenty of families living below or close to the poverty line recreate outside.

If there is a national park near by I can see a huge benefit for a program that takes low income, disadvantaged, struggling families outdoors for a weekend.

Poor families still need time to bond, rest, play together, learn together.

I can't think of a better place than a in national park..
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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 1:53 pm 
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kevperro wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people.

That sort of policy is largely symbolic.  We foster kids and work at a homeless shelter.  Those living in poverty get zero benefits from free entrance to National Parks.  What they need are basic services and programs to move them out of poverty.
So draw the line where you wish, but the people who most need help are not impacted one iota by entrance fees to National Parks.  In fact, since it is a resource that is funded by our taxes, and used more by upper-income groups, it is in effect regressive in nature. 

So because some people are in effect destitute and are simply focused on the essentials of staying alive, we can't price entrance and use fees so that the low income families/individuals can access our public lands?

I live within walking distance to ONP. I think entrance fees should make it possible so that any low income family/individual can enjoy a trip to ONP, even if it is just to drive up to Hurricane Ridge and walk the short trails there or up to Hurricane hill. Maybe in the winter they would like  getting out in the wonderful snow for a couple hours up on Hurricane Ridge. Oops, only if they can afford $30 to access a National Park. (Yea, I think $30 is too much.)

kevperro wrote:
That is why I like gas taxes or carbon taxes.

You do realize those taxes are regressive? The people most negatively affected by those taxes are those in severe poverty.

Rumi

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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
If there is a national park near by

Yep, Washington has three National Parks.

Rumi

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"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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coldrain108
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PostTue Nov 27, 2018 2:33 pm 
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I find a week long backpacking trip in the ONP is about as inexpensive as a vacation can get.   150$ for two people, 7 nights in the most beautiful hotel rooms on earth.   Of course I need to protect my food from bears, so not everyone's cup of tea.  But still an extraordinarily inexpensive vacation, and way more satisfying than going on a cruise or a trip to Disney World...2 things one would have to put a gun to my head to make me do.

There are the initial costs of getting all the gear/supplies (I replace my gear every 20 years) and the time and effort spent getting in shape and learning how to do it LNT.  Still year after year I can go on these world class vacations with minimal outlay of $$$. 

Sweat equity instead.

How long has it been since they started charging back country users a per night fee in the ONP?  It hasn't been that long, before then we back country folks got to skate by for free.

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"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch and do nothing"  - Albert Einstein
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RodF
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 1:37 am 
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coldrain108 wrote:
How long has it been since they started charging back country users a per night fee in the ONP?

1996  $5 permit + $2 per person per night
2015  $5 per person per night
2017  $7 per person per night
2018  $8 per person per night

Add Park entrance fees to the above (currently $30 per vehicle + $15 per passenger for one week, or $55 annual Park entrance fee, or $80 annual interagency pass).

Cost for 2 people for 7 nights backpacking was $39 in 2014, and is now $157.

(Zinke's proposed fees would've been $212.)

Olympic NP fee revenue is roughly $4 million/year, of which $1.4 million is backcountry fees.  The Park spends about $600,000 per year on backcountry trail and campsite maintenance.  (The amount spent on fee collection and enforcement (Wilderness Information Center and rangers) is probably similar.)  I've repeatedly requested the Park issue a press release listing the projects funded by visitor fees, but they never have.

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kevperro
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 6:39 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
kevperro wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
It doesn't matter what the predominant income demographic is. What matters is that any fee should be within the range of even low income people.

That sort of policy is largely symbolic.  We foster kids and work at a homeless shelter.  Those living in poverty get zero benefits from free entrance to National Parks.  What they need are basic services and programs to move them out of poverty.
So draw the line where you wish, but the people who most need help are not impacted one iota by entrance fees to National Parks.  In fact, since it is a resource that is funded by our taxes, and used more by upper-income groups, it is in effect regressive in nature. 

So because some people are in effect destitute and are simply focused on the essentials of staying alive, we can't price entrance and use fees so that the low income families/individuals can access our public lands?

I live within walking distance to ONP. I think entrance fees should make it possible so that any low income family/individual can enjoy a trip to ONP, even if it is just to drive up to Hurricane Ridge and walk the short trails there or up to Hurricane hill. Maybe in the winter they would like  getting out in the wonderful snow for a couple hours up on Hurricane Ridge. Oops, only if they can afford $30 to access a National Park. (Yea, I think $30 is too much.)

kevperro wrote:
That is why I like gas taxes or carbon taxes.

You do realize those taxes are regressive? The people most negatively affected by those taxes are those in severe poverty.

Rumi

Well... you can always provide a sliding scale based upon income.     That way you offer lower-income people a break and collect user fees from those who can afford it and International visitors who don't pay taxes for the resource.   

Also, I'm not advocating that all taxes need to be progressive.   Sales tax is a regressive tax too.    I see no issues with a mix of both categories.    My addressing it was purely due to the argument put forth for lower-income people deserving access to our National Resources.     My point is that the lower income demographic is not the predominant users of the resource. What you are in effect doing is taxing the population as a whole for a recreational activity that a minority utilize.    A fairer method might include a user fee that allocates the taxation to those who most use the resource.
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 7:32 am 
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In parks like Olympic and Canyonlands it is actually far cheaper to stay in a car campground than to backpack. I believe the people in charge see this a feature rather than a bug. huh.gif

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joker
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 8:34 am 
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RumiDude wrote:
You do realize those taxes are regressive? The people most negatively affected by those taxes are those in severe poverty.

We're getting a bit afield here, but it's  worth noting that though warming is always regressive, carbon taxes don't need to be
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hbb
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
In parks like Olympic and Canyonlands it is actually far cheaper to stay in a car campground than to backpack. I believe the people in charge see this a feature rather than a bug. huh.gif

I'm not following you. If I car camp at Heart o' the Hills, it will cost me $20 per night. If I backpack, it will cost me $8 per night. How is that incentivizing car camping?
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 12:38 pm 
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It is $8 per person per night so that is $16 per night for 2. If you have a pass there is no discount for backpacking. If you have a geezer pass car camping is half price and no forest or park fee. So camping is $10 per night for as many people as allowed. $10 is 60% less than $16.

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hbb
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
It is $8 per person per night so that is $16 per night for 2. If you have a pass there is no discount for backpacking. If you have a geezer pass car camping is half price and no forest or park fee. So camping is $10 per night for as many people as allowed. $10 is 60% less than $16.

Yes, in that specific scenario, car camping is cheaper. Of course, if you change the setup, and assume a solo traveller backpacking for the 10th night of the year on the ONP $45 annual backcountry permit, the per-night cost to backpack is only $4.50, as opposed to $20 per-night for car camping, right?

Your whole point was that park management appears to structure fees to discourage backpacking. I still don't see it.
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Any more than 1 person car camp is cheaper. Most folks do not backpack alone, present company excepted.

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coldrain108
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Any more than 1 person car camp is cheaper. Most folks do not backpack alone, present company excepted.

but you'll be stuck next to Joe Winnebago with his all night generator, and all his drinking buddies trying to build the BIGGEST campfire man has ever seen just so they can pee on it.

Where as my camp will be like this:

with no people around for miles.

Is that worth the extra 6 dollars per night?

Absolutely!

And I don't yet have the geezer pass.

And I go solo all the time.

(the above scenario is probably more likely to be found on the MLH or MFK than in the ONP)

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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Nov 28, 2018 4:24 pm 
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That is why I usually backpack in NCNP, NF, and BLM and only use parks for a one day crash. smile.gif

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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