[nordique]

From the Mountaineers: We recently learned that Washington State DNR lands will be under permit in 2019. What does that mean? · Anything fee-based requires a permit, regardless of number of participants. This includes all activities that are exclusively for course participants such as field trips, SIG outings and conditioners. · On NRCA Land, all free and fee-based activities with more than 12 participants require a permit. · On State Forest Land, all free and fee-based activities with more than 25 participants require a permit. We must submit our 2019 dates and party sizes by Friday, December 28th. This means that if you plan to take your group to any of the places listed below, we need you to list those trips on our website no later than Friday December 21. We realize this is a quick turn-around, and we apologize for the short notice. We are in the midst of working with the DNR staff to better understand their expectations of us and how we can operate our educational programs while complying with their land management requirements. For now, we’ve been given direction to submit a permit application for all of our 2019 dates by the end of 2018. Tips: · If applicable, clarify in your description whether your scheduled field trip/conditioner/trip will be on trail or off trail. While we can’t make promises, DNR seems less concerned about some off-trail travel than they do about large groups on the trails. · Keep your groups small when possible. We’ll submit all requests, including some of the large groups of 50 that have done conditioners on those lands in the past, but we believe smaller groups will be more likely to receive permits. What if I want to add a trip in the spring, after the permit deadline? Unfortunately, we don’t know. We’re working with DNR on figuring out how to both make their lives easy by submitting only one permit in January, but also allow flexibility for our volunteer leaders. It’s a slow process though, as this permitting process is new for them, and they’ve got a lot on their plates. We will do our best to help you get permits if you choose dates after the deadline, but can’t make promises. Please take a look at the route/places below, and make sure you list yours on our website by Friday, December 21! If you have any questions in the meantime, please contact Amanda, our Volunteer Services Representative, who is the main contact for all things permitting within The Mountaineers. Her email is amandav@mountaineers.org Thanks in advance! State Forest (ALL fee-based activities; all free activities over 25 people) Around South Tiger Mountain Bob Bammert Grove Capitol Peak Cherry Creek Falls East Tiger Mountain Fuzzy Top Green Mountain Loop Green Mountain Loop (Kitsap Peninsula) Green Mountain: Gold Creek Trail Green Mountain: Wildcat Trail Irondale to Chimicum Creek Iverson Railroad & Artifacts Trails Lake Fenwick, Kent via the Rabbit Loop Little Larch Mountain Lost Valley Loop McDonald Mountain McLane Creek Nature Trail Middle Tiger Mountain Mima Falls Porter Falls Porter Trail Rock Candy Mountain Salt Water State Park NRCA (ALL fee-based activities; all free activities over 12 people) Cypress & Strawberry Islands Granite Creek Trail Mailbox Peak Ashland Lakes Greider Lakes Crater Lake Mountain Exit 32 Picnic Rock (Exit 32) Mount Teneriffe/Serendipity Ridge Little Si/Meditation Rock Teneriffe Falls Loop Mount Teneriffe (winter) Kamikaze (Teneriffe) Falls Dixie Peak Talus Loop trail Si, Si Again Mount Si Old Trail Little Si Mount Teneriffe Mount Si Main Trail Paradise Valley Conservation Area West Tiger Mountain 1-2-3 Tiger Mountain Tiger Mountain Lowlands West Tiger Mountain Railroad Grade Tiger Mountain Trail West Tiger Mountain No. 3 Cable Line West Tiger Mountain 1 & 2 Tradition Lake Interpretive Shelter West Tiger Mountain No. 1 Poo Poo Point West Tiger Mountain No. 3 Hidden Tiger Dirty Harry's Balcony & East Balcony via Putrid Pete Trail Dirty Harry's Balcony (winter) Woodard Bay

[iron]

so basically this notice only applies to nordique's groups that are 25+ people?

[Kim Brown]

Nordique knows better than me of course, but it sounds like an organization needs a commercial permit if they charge for a course (fee-based), the group needs a use permit for each fee-based outing. The Mountaineers are working with DNR to obtain ONE annual permit in January. Sounds like an iteration of USFS' commercial permit. I don't think they are including annual dues as a fee-based trip (as in paying Mountaineers dues and signing up for a hike). I don't know what "field trip/conditioner" trip means; perhaps these are a part of a fee-based course? If not, then perhaps like The Mountaineers are playing it safe and getting permits for everything until the thing is clarified/worked out? I think I'm repeating myself. (2nd glass of wine with dinner) Just a guess; I don't think this applies to a bunch of freinds going out.

[uww]

[joker]

[Kim Brown]

Ah! Yes, the group size. I know the Conditioner series in The Mountaineers is very popular!

[nordique]

I assume that my three-hikes-a-week geezer group does not fall under these new rules. I just sent out an email about what hike we are doing on Thursday and I've no idea what we might do Saturday--so we do not plan events far ahead. We are a not a fee-based group (though I do accept a free mocha once in a while). No newsletter, rules, or dues. I'm too lazy to keep track of how many geezers come on our hikes though I do always take a trailhead photo. Even when our groups are big, like yesterday's 18 (with three different subgroups each going to a different highpoint), we tend to get spread out into much smaller groups--though the people taking photos are usually well off the back. This regulation is probably a good idea for commercial operations.

[Malachai Constant]

The only thing I can think of is The Thursday OSAT meeting on Tiger 3 but I assume the will easily get a permit.

[joker]

Does TNAB still exist? I only joined for one outing but it seemed like it was heading toward a pretty big attendance level at that point...

[BigBrunyon]

Probably gonna start seeing an increase in camo demand at retailers catering to the more hiking crowd now that more groups may be forced to operate covert if they didn't get the pass

[Randito]

I suspect this has less to do with the Mountaineers than it does with AIRBNB "activities" where tourists can sign up for and pay a fee for a local guide to take hike or "forest bath". Perhaps it's a crack down on "The Outing Club" which has long skirted rules concerning guiding and special use permits