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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 10:13 am 
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Why weed-whack when you can take care of trimming for the season with a good dousing of Roundup?

A neighbor just returned from a few weeks of noodling around the peninsula. She mentioned that her favorite place (outside the NP/NF) is Salt Creek Recreation Area, not far from Joyce. She saw an amazing amount of wildlife while there: otters, whales, birds.

She also reported being quite disturbed by the amount of Roundup that was being used by park staff, obviously as an alternative to grass trimming: they were applying it around parking areas, playground installments, fences, etc.  She mentioned that they put up signs saying that they were spraying, but she had to leave the immediate area because the drift was affecting her and she didn't want to walk her dog anywhere near the stuff.  I guess the Monsanto "conventional wisdom" is that once dry, there's no harm to kids playing in sprayed areas, or your pets walking/lying/snuffling through it.

I've seen city of Seattle workers doing the same thing around the fences of the playground/ball park near my home.  It seems parks maintenance depts of city/county/state gov'ts are just fine with resorting to chemicals because it's easy (like the ubiquitous leaf blowers - easier than raking).

Somehow I feel the public would rather have  park areas look less tidy than being doused with chemicals as a maintenance convenience.  Getting the farmers off chemicals is one thing; what can be done to get this crap out of our parks (not to mention the homeowners who can't stop using "Weed & Feed", etc.)  It's so unnecessary!

One bit of good news on the chemical front: California just banned the use of chlorpyrifos.

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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iron
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PostThu May 09, 2019 10:22 am 
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what's a little cancer here and there. free market rulez, baby!

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man, you go through life, you try to be nice to people, you struggle to resist the urge to punch 'em in the face, and for what?

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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 10:52 am 
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Iron: yeah, I know. The hypocrisy (Save the salmon! Save the orcas!) bothers me as much or more.  Some of us old enough to remember the early years of the environmental movement now recognize what a (mostly) flaming failure it's been. Our scorecard to date pretty much makes Richard Nixon an enviro activism patron saint.  He's as good as it got, back when the EPA et al actually had enforcement clout. 

Most of the new kids demanding something be done RIGHT NOW! to stop global warming probably have never read anything by Derrick Jensen. They should start with the premises of Endgame, his magnum opus.

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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neek
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PostThu May 09, 2019 1:08 pm 
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Depressing sentiment there AE.  I've heard similar from others of your generation.  But there's a good chance that you did make a difference, that things would be much worse now otherwise.  So thank you.  I'm hopeful we'll continue engineering ourselves out of the messes we create for a little while longer, ugly though the process may be.  It's hard to imagine much point to anything without sentient beings around to appreciate it all.
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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 09, 2019 1:51 pm 
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https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2019/05/09/anti-glyphosate_campaigners_cling_to_a_science_fiction_110972.html

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/real-clear-science/
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MtnGoat
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PostThu May 09, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Nice work, I was getting to that.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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PostThu May 09, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Quote:
In fact, the two cases and indeed the entire mega-litigation argument hinges on one study – and Judge Chhabria had to decide whether it would be admissible at the upcoming trial. Unfortunately, he ruled that plaintiff lawyers could introduce that study as evidence, despite the multiple deceptions surrounding it.

Many experts say the study is highly suspect, bordering on fraudulent, and should have been barred.

Glyphosate is the active ingredient in Roundup weed killer. Introduced in 1974 and licensed in 130 countries, it is the world’s most widely used herbicide. Millions of homeowners use it regularly. Farmers employ it with “Roundup-Ready” corn, soybeans and other crops that are engineered to be resistant to it, so as to minimize weeding and tilling, preserve soil structure, and reduce erosion and water evaporation.

Farmers also like it, says cancer epidemiologist Geoffrey Kabat, “because it is environmentally benign and has low toxicity.” In fact, he says, “the acute toxicity of glyphosate is lower than that of table salt.”

Multiple studies by respected organizations worldwide have concluded that glyphosate is safe and non-carcinogenic. Reviewers include the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, European Food Safety Authority, European Chemicals Agency, Food and Agriculture Organization, Germany’s Institute for Risk Assessment, Health Canada, Australia’s Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority, and others

And the one study is from here...

Quote:
Only one agency, the France-based International Agency for Cancer Research (IARC), says otherwise. IARC does no research of its own. It simply reviews existing research and classifies chemicals as definitely, probably or possibly a cause of cancer in humans – often at extremely high doses that humans are extremely unlikely to encounter in the real world. Nor does the agency conduct “risk assessments” to determine exposure levels at which chemicals might actually have adverse effects on people.

In fact, some chemicals may cause cancer at extremely high doses, but be completely harmless at levels encountered in our daily lives. Other substances are harmful at high doses but beneficial or vital at very low doses; not having them in our bodies at certain low levels can cause severe health problems.

To date, IARC has studied over 900 substances – and found only one was “probably not carcinogenic.” Its antiquated approach lumps bacon, sausage, sunlight and plutonium together in its “definitely carcinogenic” category. Its list of “possible” carcinogens includes pickled vegetables and caffeic acid, which is found in coffee, tea, apples, blueberries, broccoli, kale, onions and other fruits and vegetables.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/02/04/keep-fraudulent-science-out-of-our-courtrooms/

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 2:56 pm 
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NeeK wrote:
Depressing sentiment there AE.  I've heard similar from others of your generation.  But there's a good chance that you did make a difference, that things would be much worse now otherwise.

We had little victories, Neek.  If we hadn't, we'd probably not have any bald eagles now (the best victory example that comes to mind.) The Great Lakes are cleaner than they used to be, but only because we exported so much industry overseas where there weren't environmental controls. The residuals last seemingly forever: check out the chemicals list on pg 69 of Appendix A in this PDF  Lake Erie Management Plan Technical Report.  I grew up drinking water out of Lake Erie, so I just lose it when people here (where it's relatively pristine) minimize the effects of pollution.  It just seems we haven't learned much at all; or maybe we have, but it's not made much of a dent in the corporate/gov't complex.  Can we avoid turning Puget Sound into another Chesapeake Bay? I wouldn't bet on it.

Maybe my cynicism level is high this week b/c of this latest day brightener: Humans Are Speeding Extinction and Altering the Natural World at an ‘Unprecedented’ Pace  So many of these problems would almost solve themselves if humans would self-regulate reproduction ... to about 15th century levels. But I digress.

Time to go back out to my bees and garden, and calm down.

2019 Ballard bees
2019 Ballard bees

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Anne Elk
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PostThu May 09, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Randy,

I'm all for research and science-based facts.  As a beekeeper, I watched all the hype around "colony collapse disorder" and for a while, the culprit was claimed to be neonicotinoids.  The truth was much more complex and multifactorial, as bee researchers since discovered.  Yet some of the media continue to hype neonics as the main factor.  It's just wrong. The article you linked to (and many others I've seen) only claims no links have been proven between glyphosate and cancer. Doesn't mean it's harmless - other studies looking at other biological effects have been ongoing.

The failure of the EPA to ban chlorpyrifos demonstrates that the gov't acts in bad faith under false pretenses:

Quote:
Strong evidence now supports the notion that organophosphate pesticides damage the fetal brain and produce cognitive and behavioral dysfunction through multiple mechanisms, including thyroid disruption. A regulatory ban was proposed, but actions to end the use of one such pesticide, chlorpyrifos, in agriculture were recently stopped by the Environmental Protection Agency under false scientific pretenses. This manuscript describes the costs and consequences of this policy failure and notes how this case study is emblematic of a broader dismissal of scientific evidence and attacks on scientific norms.


I don't think we really know conclusively, re glyphosate; but I think Monsanto and the current EPA inspire as much confidence as tobacco company research.

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"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 09, 2019 4:03 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
So many of these problems would almost solve themselves if humans would self-regulate reproduction ... to about 15th century levels.

Ah the golden era that followed the Black Death and lead to the renaissance and also the era where women bore children almost their entire fertile lives because a family needs to birth 12 children to see at least a few reach adulthood.
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MtnGoat
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PostThu May 09, 2019 4:18 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
I don't think we really know conclusively, re glyphosate; but I think Monsanto and the current EPA inspire as much confidence as tobacco company research.

What about the other current reviewers?

Quote:
Reviewers include the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, European Food Safety Authority, European Chemicals Agency, Food and Agriculture Organization, Germany’s Institute for Risk Assessment, Health Canada, Australia’s Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority, and others

You *can* test for these things using falsifiable work.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 09, 2019 4:34 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
I don't think we really know conclusively, re glyphosate; but I think Monsanto and the current EPA inspire as much confidence as tobacco company research.

Many agencies have classified glyphosate as "not carcinogenic" One agency has classified glyphosate as "possibly carcinogenic",  but note that sunshine is classified as "definitely carcinogenic" by every agency.

Not that I reccomend swimming in a swimming pool filled with glyphosate any more that hiking to Camp Muir in June in a thong and no sunscreen.
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neek
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PostThu May 09, 2019 4:34 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Ah the golden era that followed the Black Death and lead to the renaissance and also the era where women bore children almost their entire fertile lives because a family needs to birth 12 children to see at least a few reach adulthood.

Sounds like someone's humours are out of balance...

That's the question though, will humans eventually self-regulate, or will nature do it for them?  (Does nuclear annihilation count as self-regulation?)
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RandyHiker
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PostThu May 09, 2019 4:40 pm 
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neek wrote:
Sounds like someone's humours are out of balance...

That's the question though, will humans eventually self-regulate, or will nature do it for them?  (Does nuclear annihilation count as self-regulation?)

Natural population regulation is a messy thing.  The human population course of Easter Island I think gives an indication of how it will play out on a global scale.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island

Quote:
Between 1862 and 1888, about 94% of the population perished or emigrated
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PostThu May 09, 2019 5:37 pm 
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8000 non-Hodgkins Lymphoma lawsuits against Monsanto by groundskeepers. First judgement $289 million
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