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Doppelganger
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 7:52 am 
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Ski wrote:
^ Well... considering that the local native tribes burned the area for millennia (at least back as far as 3500 years BP, according to ONP), clearcutting that tiny little parcel there just north of Lake Ozette seems insignificant in the larger picture.

Put as much lipstick on there as you like, a clearcut is a clearcut. I'm not debating the need for the industry, or whether the current restoration model is good enough. Just my distaste for the clearcuts, let's not try to pretend they are a great thing. See any TRs from any of these parcels? And zooming out clearly shows it's not just a single tiny parcel, the whole peninsula is patchwork.

Ski wrote:
Openings in the forest canopy


dizzy.gif lol.gif lol.gif Parking lots could also be accurately described in this way.
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Ski
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 9:16 am 
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It would doubtless be better if they were burned off, as had been done for thousands of years all over the North American continent.
They are great things from the standpoint of wildfire prevention. There is no better fire break than a clearcut.
True, there aren't a lot of TRs here on them. I guess they don't hold the attraction that areas burned over by wildfire seem to have with some members here. Or maybe it's that those of us using them for berry fields don't want to let others know where they are.
They're all over the Peninsula because most of that real estate out there is privately-owned timber land, and private timber land owners are free to do as they see fit as long as it complies with current harvesting standards.

As to parking lots: most are covered with impermeable surfaces and don't allow for any new plant growth (at least until those surfaces eventually fail and pioneer plants appear in the cracks and openings.)

Again, other than your obvious objection to timber harvesting, I fail to see exactly what it is you object to so strongly.
Trees are cut down, and new trees  grow.
If you do not cut them down, either the wind will knock them over or fire will consume them.

And again, as mentioned above, you may wish to look up the document I cited above. While it outlines historic activity by Native American tribal groups in only one small area, it illustrates the sort of activity that took place for millennia all over the North American continent.
If you believe that this entire continent was at some point during pre-Columbian times covered from sea to shining sea with lush, green, uncompromised late-seral forest, you have been tragically misinformed.

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Ski
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 9:56 am 
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^ I should have also noted above:

While seemingly unsightly at first, regeneration harvesting ("clearcutting"), as noted above, is the preferred and best management prescription out there on those coastal plains.
As treeswarper pointed out above, selective harvesting (pre-commercial or commercial thinning) usually results in a lot of wood knocked down by wind in the years immediately following harvest activity. This can be seen along Hwy 101 on the Rayonier parcels between Hoquiam and Kalaloch where attempts were made to provide "visual buffers" between the highway and the cutting units.
RodF has also pointed out on this site at least a couple times that wind is the primary cause of tree mortality out there, not fire.

Unfortunately those who object to the cut-over parcels because of their visual impact are taking a rather short-term view. I've gone up and down that highway between Hoquiam and Kalaloch many times over the course of more than half a century, and I've watched old units which were barren of any timber when I was young cut and replanted and now growing 25-30 feet tall.
Forests do not exist in stasis - they are always evolving. The human activity, which has existed since humans were occupying the continent, only accelerates that process.

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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 10:27 am 
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here.... I'll make it even easier for you:

The Ozette Prairies of Olympic National Park: Their Former Indigenous Uses and Management" © 2009 M. Kat Anderson (et al), National Park Service

Again, the document outlines the activities of a small tribal group on a relatively small geographic area.

It should be noted that this same sort of activity took place all over the North American continent for thousands of years. In some areas the activity was contained to relatively small patches, in others things got completely out of control and huge areas were burned.
If you dig though my previous posts on this website you'll find innumerable other citations on the use of fire by pre-Columbian native Americans.

And while admittedly immediately following harvesting, some of these areas look like hell, unlike in historical times the land owners are now required to plant new seedlings. Generally the replant ratio is about 5:1 (five seedlings planted for each tree cut), but in some cases the replant ratio is greater to allow for mortality due to ungulate browsing and other causes.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Doppelganger
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 10:35 am 
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Ski wrote:
Trees are cut down, and new trees  grow.

And it is lamentable.

Ski wrote:
If you do not cut them down, either the wind will knock them over or fire will consume them.

Sure. Better hurry up and put one of these parcels here https://goo.gl/maps/c1bzdBFCAg98zBzX9. So where's the results of wind and fire you describe in the forest we have left alone here?

People are free to do what they like with their property. Burn controls implemented by the area's original residents might have worked great, for the scale of operations then. Doesn't really scale well to today, you would have to admit. Off track from my original point anyways - simple distaste for the clearcuts.
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:01 pm 
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doppelganger wrote:
So where's the results of wind and fire you describe in the forest we have left alone here?

It may or may not succumb to wind or fire or disease any time soon.
For that matter, it could be centuries before there are significant changes seen.
Some areas seem to be less susceptible to the forces of nature than others, but inevitably change will occur.

Four years ago 962 acres of river valley immediately south of that area burned due to a lightning strike. (here: 47.699966, -123.790504) If it can happen on the west side of the Olympics, it can happen anywhere.

I know that a lot of people would like to cling to their fantasies about those old forests being something which will be "forever", but unfortunately it just isn't so.

Classic "belief system" vs. "science" argument .... pretty much a waste of my time.

Thanks.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Doppelganger
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:12 pm 
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Ski wrote:
I know that a lot of people would like to cling to their fantasies about those old forests being something which will be "forever", but unfortunately it just isn't so.

Classic "belief system" vs. "science" argument .... pretty much a waste of my time.

Are you suggesting that I adhere to such fantasies? Would you be able to point me towards my statements upon which you base this suggestion?

Now clearcutting on an industrial scale being anywhere at all equivalent to natural process, or even prehistoric control methods, as you allude in your reference to the recent fire at 47.699966, -123.790504 or repeated references to native burns... That's fantasy.
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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Ski wrote:
I know that a lot of people would like to cling to their fantasies about those old forests being something which will be "forever", but unfortunately it just isn't so.

But a natural disaster is a part of old forests; so windthrow, fire - that's all part of it. That's what I think of when I think of an old forest being "forever." It's not the actual stand of trees in some cases. Nature doesn't recover from clearcut very well. It's overwhelming. Managed recovery from clearcut - yeah, if we help it, it recovers well.

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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:20 pm 
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You might want to check out the devastation of the landscape that was the result of the "Biscuit Fire" in southwest Oregon about ... 15 years or so back ... or any number of other catastrophic wildfire events that denuded the landscape of any and all vegetation.

You're free to carry on with your objections - I do understand your position, as I used to be of the same mindset prior to becoming more informed about forest management and how our forests have evolved over time.

But facts are still facts, regardless of feelings.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Doppelganger
Gorecrow



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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Ski wrote:
or any number of other catastrophic wildfire events that denuded the landscape of any and all vegetation.

Sure, good idea. That's a simple equation as well. Clearcut = take the important organic material away. Burn = organic material left behind (even your Biscuit Fire wasn't a "catastropic wildfire event that denuded the landscape of any and all vegetation" as you claim, otherwise there would have been no salvage logging correct???)

Show me a nurse log in one of those parcels. Everyone loves a nurse log.

In fact, if we examine the lasting effects in the very prairies you love to trot out as examples of past controlled burns being some kind of equivalent to today's clearcutting, we can clearly see that even though burns have not occurred in these fields for over 100 years, the effects of those burns are still persistent.
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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Ski wrote:
You might want to check out the devastation of the landscape that was the result of the "Biscuit Fire" in southwest Oregon about

I remember it; haven't seen it but have seen the Schoolhouse aftermath. Same thing only different.

Looks like a result of humans making a mistake in their management and the forest fire being more overwhelming to its recovery than it would have otherwise. Humans create an overwhelming situation with clearcut.

Under relatively normal circumstances, as natural and normal as a landscape can get, a naturally-occurring fire or other naturally-occurring event that changes the forest is part of the succession of an old forest.

(what's the thread about? I don't remember)

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Gregory
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PostFri Jun 21, 2019 6:54 am 
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RodF wrote:
Gregory wrote:
I am guessing now that our DNR trust land cost more than they make for our schools?

No, cost of running DNR is about half of timber revenues, as best I could tell digging through the DNR Annual Reports.

Thank you, sir, for taking the time to post the link to the DNR budget. Much appreciated.
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Doppelganger
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PostFri Jun 21, 2019 7:06 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
a naturally-occurring fire or other naturally-occurring event that changes the forest is part of the succession of an old forest.

This is the basic logic that seems to escape every discussion about forest ecology, climate change, or any model that has established itself over millennia exclusive of human activity.

The forest learned to grow without getting cut down and hauled away every 10 years. The process within which it learned to grow is invalidated to varying extents depending on the quality of harvesting, restoration and management methods.

Introducing the human variable changes or breaks old models.

Kim Brown wrote:
(what's the thread about? I don't remember)

The industry cheerleading baited me. I derailed the thread. Sorry.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Jun 21, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Didn't see any cheerleading, just facts and arguments you seem to think are cheerleading.

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PostTue Jun 25, 2019 12:07 pm 
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I'm searching now for a new ophthalmologist, because apparently my eyeballs have been lying to me for the last 65 years.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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