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Ski
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 10:27 am 
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here.... I'll make it even easier for you:

The Ozette Prairies of Olympic National Park: Their Former Indigenous Uses and Management" © 2009 M. Kat Anderson (et al), National Park Service

Again, the document outlines the activities of a small tribal group on a relatively small geographic area.

It should be noted that this same sort of activity took place all over the North American continent for thousands of years. In some areas the activity was contained to relatively small patches, in others things got completely out of control and huge areas were burned.
If you dig though my previous posts on this website you'll find innumerable other citations on the use of fire by pre-Columbian native Americans.

And while admittedly immediately following harvesting, some of these areas look like hell, unlike in historical times the land owners are now required to plant new seedlings. Generally the replant ratio is about 5:1 (five seedlings planted for each tree cut), but in some cases the replant ratio is greater to allow for mortality due to ungulate browsing and other causes.

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Ski
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:01 pm 
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doppelganger wrote:
So where's the results of wind and fire you describe in the forest we have left alone here?

It may or may not succumb to wind or fire or disease any time soon.
For that matter, it could be centuries before there are significant changes seen.
Some areas seem to be less susceptible to the forces of nature than others, but inevitably change will occur.

Four years ago 962 acres of river valley immediately south of that area burned due to a lightning strike. (here: 47.699966, -123.790504) If it can happen on the west side of the Olympics, it can happen anywhere.

I know that a lot of people would like to cling to their fantasies about those old forests being something which will be "forever", but unfortunately it just isn't so.

Classic "belief system" vs. "science" argument .... pretty much a waste of my time.

Thanks.

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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Ski wrote:
I know that a lot of people would like to cling to their fantasies about those old forests being something which will be "forever", but unfortunately it just isn't so.

But a natural disaster is a part of old forests; so windthrow, fire - that's all part of it. That's what I think of when I think of an old forest being "forever." It's not the actual stand of trees in some cases. Nature doesn't recover from clearcut very well. It's overwhelming. Managed recovery from clearcut - yeah, if we help it, it recovers well.

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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 12:20 pm 
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You might want to check out the devastation of the landscape that was the result of the "Biscuit Fire" in southwest Oregon about ... 15 years or so back ... or any number of other catastrophic wildfire events that denuded the landscape of any and all vegetation.

You're free to carry on with your objections - I do understand your position, as I used to be of the same mindset prior to becoming more informed about forest management and how our forests have evolved over time.

But facts are still facts, regardless of feelings.

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Kim Brown
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PostThu Jun 20, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Ski wrote:
You might want to check out the devastation of the landscape that was the result of the "Biscuit Fire" in southwest Oregon about

I remember it; haven't seen it but have seen the Schoolhouse aftermath. Same thing only different.

Looks like a result of humans making a mistake in their management and the forest fire being more overwhelming to its recovery than it would have otherwise. Humans create an overwhelming situation with clearcut.

Under relatively normal circumstances, as natural and normal as a landscape can get, a naturally-occurring fire or other naturally-occurring event that changes the forest is part of the succession of an old forest.

(what's the thread about? I don't remember)

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Gregory
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PostFri Jun 21, 2019 6:54 am 
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RodF wrote:
Gregory wrote:
I am guessing now that our DNR trust land cost more than they make for our schools?

No, cost of running DNR is about half of timber revenues, as best I could tell digging through the DNR Annual Reports.

Thank you, sir, for taking the time to post the link to the DNR budget. Much appreciated.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Jun 21, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Didn't see any cheerleading, just facts and arguments you seem to think are cheerleading.

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Ski
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PostTue Jun 25, 2019 12:07 pm 
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I'm searching now for a new ophthalmologist, because apparently my eyeballs have been lying to me for the last 65 years.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Jun 26, 2019 9:17 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
The forest learned to grow without getting cut down and hauled away every 10 years.

Goodness! Where is this fast growing forest located?  Is it bamboo?  I don't think we grow that around here yet. 

I suggest you go out into a clearcut.  Off the road, off the landing.  Actually look at what is on the ground.  Google will not show you the old culls left on the ground that are now nurse logs.   You have to do some work to see that. 

Dunno about everybody, but there can be logs left out for wildlife and decomposition.  Also, gnarly trees (the kind that are said to be the best for birds) are left standing, sometimes in clumps so as to withstand the wind.   If you drive east of I-5 on Hwy 12, look at the north hillside in the Glenoma area.  You'll see a young stand of trees amongst some quite large trees.  The larger trees were left for wildlife.  We thought that they'd blow down.  They didn't.  That hillside was logged in the late 1980s.  The big trees stayed up and still exist.    We are often surprised by outcomes.   

Walk through some of the old clearcuts.  You'll find the remnants of large, old cull logs that were left because it was a waste of time to yard in a cull.  Cull logs were often the butt log which had rot in it,  or a spiral grained tree.  They exist, but you have to get out and walk, off trail, through the forest.  Usually there is no Instagram worthy view.  Just a forest that was logged off, burned, and regrown.  The big logs didn't burn up during a broadcast burn because they were, well, big and it takes a lot of fuel and heat to burn those.  As I stated previously, slash burning was done so the unit could be replanted.  Try getting a seedling in the ground through a couple feet of slash, then repeat a thousand times.  The intent of burning was to burn the limbs more than the cull logs. 

Forestry is evolving, but your thinking is not.  Read some industry publications.  They'll talk about new techniques, new equipment, new ways of thinking.  One even featured a logger who had a contract with The Nature Conservancy to use his yarder and crew to put trees in a stream on their property.   I have worked with that crew, and they make it a point to be flexible and on top of the latest trends and technology.

fellandbuck
fellandbuck
This area is finished.
This area is finished.

As for Ski's statement that clearcuts make good firebreaks?  Not always.  It depends on how much slash was left on the ground.  I was on a fire above Enumclaw that was located in one of those checkerboard ownership areas.  The fire would die down when in the old growth area, but then it would get hot again when it entered a newly planted plantation.  The reason was that the landowner, Weyco, did not burn their units.  They planted through the slash, which was not old growth sized so it was possible to plant in it.  There were then acres of little black seedlings in the burned areas.  Depending on the location, such as Southwestern Oregon, brush comes back in and some of it (Manzanita) is quite flammable.  In Northern CA, the area around Happy Camp seems to burn and reburn frequently because of that. 

It's hard to make a broad statement about forestry.  There are too many variables in location, weather,  vegetation types and topography.

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Ski
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PostWed Jun 26, 2019 11:19 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
As for Ski's statement that clearcuts make good firebreaks?  Not always. It depends on how much slash was left on the ground.

(* emphasis added *)

Yes, and mine was a "broad statement".
I'd posit, however, that if they were scarified and the slash piles torched, their effectiveness (as fire breaks) would be great.
Unfortunately, as you've noted, a lot of the short-term-harvest plantation units are littered with slash either from previous cuts or previous pre-commercial thinning operations - glaringly evident up along the upper Clearwater Road and the 22 (West Boundary) Road out on the west side of the Peninsula.

treeswarper wrote:
It's hard to make a broad statement about forestry.  There are too many variables in location, weather,  vegetation types and topography.

No, actually, it's quite easily done.

It's just that most of the broad statements are not fact-based.

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Pyrites
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PostThu Jun 27, 2019 12:08 am 
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A no muss no fuss way to keep current is to ask to be notified of new papers here:


https://www.fs.usda.gov/pnw/

Scroll down and sign up for notifications.

Best.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 27, 2019 5:50 am 
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Here is an industry based online magazine.

https://forestnet.com/TimberWest.php

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treeswarper
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PostThu Jun 27, 2019 4:35 pm 
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doppelganger, I guess I thought you knew a bit more than it appears you do....don't feel bad.

That picture is NOT a clearcut.  It is showing a unit that was just logged.  Maybe a few days after the last logs were taken out.  The original stand was what grew after the Cispus Burn.  Trees were about 80 years old.  It was a thinning and was yarded with a helicopter.  It's about as low impact as you can get, 'cept for having to have a large landing area (clearcut) for the helicopter, fueling equipment, and the usual landing stuff.

I wanted to show that not all is lost when an area is "logged".  Loggers are quite capable of doing a careful job.  They will generally do what the landowner wants done or they'll be looking for work elsewhere.  It does take a bit of communication and somebody wandering through the unit(s) making sure that things are working out as planned.  Then communicating how things are turning out with the logger.

That picture of downed wood is another thinning where a nice job was done.  The other shows a corridor, which is needed when skyline yarding.  That was yet another thinning in progress and in order to avoid building a road, what was called an intermediate support had to be hung to keep the skyline from hitting the ground.  The ground profile was not favorable for cable yarding.  The corridor is about ten feet wide.

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Kim Brown
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PostFri Jun 28, 2019 9:44 am 
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A few photos of a selected logging operation that doesn't result in a totally churned stomach doesn't prove that most cuts aren't stomach-churning, and clear-cuts always are.

We're not stupid - we drive forest roads, we can see it.

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treeswarper
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PostSun Jun 30, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
A few photos of a selected logging operation that doesn't result in a totally churned stomach doesn't prove that most cuts aren't stomach-churning, and clear-cuts always are.

We're not stupid - we drive forest roads, we can see it.

Not so sure about that last point.  Sure you drive the roads.  But do you understand that forests are used to disturbance?  Are you an educated expert in forest silviculture?  Soils?  Watersheds? in order to pronounce that all clearcutting is bad because you don't like the looks of it?   Can you understand that one size does not fit all when it comes to forest management?  Can you understand uneven aged management?  Commercial thinning?  Precommercial thinning?  Thinning via basal area?  Shelterwood?  Thinning from below?  Thinning from above?  How to locate a wildlife clump in one of those offending clearcuts so trees are not likely to be blown down and equipment can work through or around it?  Do you know about treatments after harvest?  Lopping and scattering?  Hand piles?  Machine piles?  Slash left for wildlife purposes?  Do you know how to locate roads and landings?  How about what species to replant with?  How many seedlings per acre?  What year of seedlings?  Wildlife damage?  How about closing roads?  Removing fill?  Pipes?  Figuring out where to locate soil removed from fills?  Erosion control methods? ...

An upset tummy is an emotional reaction.   But by golly, it must work and some of us wasted money studying forestry when all we had to do was go by our "gut" feelings.

The meadow.  Can you hear the skeeters?
The meadow.  Can you hear the skeeters?

Good heavens!  Don't look at that picture!  There are stumps along the edges and your tummy will feel icky.

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