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joker
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 12:02 pm 
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I suspect there's something  to  the nature  of the  "on-ramps" to hiking that  people used to versus currently go through. I doubt it's the  whole story but I think it's nonetheless significant.

I really learned the ropes of hiking and backpacking with a boy scout troop whose leader was quite  strong about leaving our camps and rest stops better than we'd found them (i.e. picking up the trash of others not just  our own etc.). Some got their start with clubs like the Mounties, the Sierra Club, or the  AMC. And yeah in  the day of guidebooks lots of us at  least read *one*  of those prefatory sections in one of our guidebooks, even if we didn't read them all. Now you  can spend an evening getting intrigued about  hiking thanks to FOMO-inducing social media posts, get an idea  of where to  go from said  posts (all  the better to hammer that one spot relentlessly! the selfie opportunities are too compelling to do otherwise...), and stock  up  on gear that  will  arrive in boxes at the  doorstep tomorrow. Time to hike!

Clubs and  guidebook authors long ago learned that it was important for them to invest a decent chunk into  education on safety and low-impact practices. Social media largely hasn't evolved to the  same point yet.

I've challenged the admins of WH&C on FB to invest more in trying to match these sorts of efforts in their groups, and  have volunteered to help if they are  interested. So far I instead mostly see periodic fundraisers for one of the local SAR groups and policies banning photos of illegal practices (which are rather  silently taken down). Some of the admins still  regularly weigh in on threads where concern about overexposing  fragile spots is being  discussed to dismiss the  concerns. Sigh.

I am, nonetheless, an optimist. Just as clubs evolved to have  a strong educational component, I think that we're now at the "pine bough  bed and bash/bury/burn" stage of evolution in terms of social media use and  hiking. I bet that in twenty years, current online norms will be largely seen to be as retrograde as cutting boughs to sleep on or burying cans after burning them in the fire are seen to  be now.
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Kim Brown
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Joker, I think you're right; LNT messaging on organizations' social media are fairly new. Too, a lot of folks aren't engaged in organizational social media as they once were (rather, pages like WHC are the in-thing - - - or are they on the way out too...? ).

Could be that we might need the Generations of Bad Habits to die off, leaving people who, since babyhood were immersed in good stewardship.

Someone up-thread pointed out an intriguing thing: That American's are a more independent people, so we're more difficult to reign in. I guess some just like to be rascals who do the opposite of what's right.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 1:58 pm 
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I went hiking with two friends in Connecticut once. One of them, from Connecticut, didn't think twice about leaving his trash on the ground in the woods.  The other said something that made an impression on him: "I'm from California, it's so polluted you wouldn't believe it, I never saw a place this clean until I was an adult.  You should appreciate what you have."
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Jul 02, 2019 3:33 pm 
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kvpair wrote:
I 100% agree. Last week, I was with my 8 year old and we did a short trip to Kamikaze Falls. On the way down, this woman decided that she wanted to cut switchbacks and seemed offended when I explained to her why this was a bad idea. So I decided to take 10 minutes and obliterate the cut with fallen branches and rocks. I hope that my son learns a lesson from this. Parenting and to a perhaps lesser extent, schooling should teach personal responsibility and accountability.

Kamikaze Falls is a bit of a special case. There was a long established trail to the falls which went straight up the creek. DNR then started to build the trail but ran out of funds before completing the trail construction. The result was a much longer trail constructed with softball sized rocks. It was quite difficult to go up the trail without twisting your ankle. It is likely the person you saw was ascending the old trail, your rocks and branches will soon be removed. The DNR trail is better now that fines have solidified some of the tread. So it goes.

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Ski
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PostWed Jul 03, 2019 5:17 am 
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I am taking the liberty of posting this email from Mr. Wood here.
The PSA he refers to is HERE:


From: Terry Wood
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 11:38 PM
To: skimohawk
Subject: Got your message

Thanks for attempting to connect with me via the newspaper. My editor passed your note along to me.

That same editor regrettably deleted a portion of a comment from Craig Romano in my story that cited the effectiveness of the 1971 weeping Native American/Keep America Beautiful PSA and the salubrious effect it had, albeit temporarily, on most citizens' propensity to dump and run with their trash.

It is my faint hope that my article might stir up a similar spirit throughout our outdoor community, perhaps catching the fleeting attention of newcomers to wilderness exploration and persuading them to reconsider their indifferent approach to managing their garbage. It's a faint hope, but a hope nevertheless.

Your community at NWHikers contributed some worthwhile, rational comments on this topic. If only public discourse could maintain that level of civility on a broader scale. There's another faint hope we can cling to.

Thanks again for making the effort to connect.

Terry

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Sky Hiker
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PostWed Jul 03, 2019 6:00 am 
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I remember that commercial, it actually ran for a while so it made more of an impression.
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Schenk
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PostWed Jul 03, 2019 10:12 am 
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Sky Hiker wrote:
I remember that commercial, it actually ran for a while so it made more of an impression.

Yup, that is Iron Eyes Cody

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vibramhead
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PostWed Jul 10, 2019 7:00 pm 
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Ski wrote:
n their infinite wisdom, the US Congress pulled the plug on the funding appropriations for the "Don't be a litterbug" PSA announcements that we were continually bombarded with in the early 1960s on television.
One Seattle Times commenter notes that the "Do Not Litter" signs which used to be posted all along Washington's highways were removed at some point.

As I understand it, this campaign was all part of the corporate-funded "Keep America Beautiful" campaign, which was aimed at blaming consumers for litter, rather than manufacturers who were cranking out disposable packaging.  Doubtless, it helped educate people not to litter, but its main effect was to defeat bottle-deposit laws and the like.
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vibramhead
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PostWed Jul 10, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Ah yes, good old Iron Eyes, an Italian-American actor.  One would have thought that the beverage industry could at least have found a real Native American to aid them in their battle against bottle-deposit laws.
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puzzlr
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PostWed Jul 10, 2019 9:40 pm 
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Slugman wrote:
True fact: Japanese people often leave stadiums clean after sporting events, the seating area and bathrooms. Tossing trash on the ground and then leaving it just isn't in their nature.

I have to call partial "bullsh*t" on this. I grew up in Japan but never went to Japanese stadiums so I can't comment on that. And in general, Japanese are very litter conscious in public urban areas. But based on hiking I did in Japan, I always wondered why they threw so much trash around in the mountains. And no one was cleaning up after them there. A caveat is that my experience is 50 years ago and cultural ethics may have changed by now.

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Ski
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PostWed Jul 10, 2019 10:19 pm 
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vibramhead wrote:
As I understand it, this campaign was all part of the corporate-funded "Keep America Beautiful" campaign, which was aimed at blaming consumers for litter, rather than manufacturers who were cranking out disposable packaging.  Doubtless, it helped educate people not to litter, but its main effect was to defeat bottle-deposit laws and the like.

LINK HERE

Well, sir, I have been misinformed and I thank you very much for pointing out that article, which makes perfect sense and seems perfectly credible. up.gif

The question, then, is WHY do we allow these manufacturers to continue these practices?

We used to pick up pop bottles and beer bottles out of the ditches along the roads when we were kids so we could cash them in and buy candy.

Why does Hawaii charge a deposit on all those bottles, but Washington does not? WHY?

( Congressional switchboard: 202 224 3121 )
( Congressman Derek Kilmer (D-Wa 6th) environmental aide Katie Allen: Katie.Allen@mail.house.gov )


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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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joker
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PostThu Jul 11, 2019 11:16 am 
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Ski wrote:
The question, then, is WHY do we allow these manufacturers to continue these practices?

The answer to this gets into politics and how they related to  stewardship. The gist though is that "elites" (e.g. beverage company owners for instance) have far more impact on what legislators do than do average voters.
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Arginine
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PostThu Jul 11, 2019 2:47 pm 
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[quote]Well, sir, I have been misinformed and I thank you very much for pointing out that article, which makes perfect sense and seems perfectly credible. up.gif[quote]

I don't think you can count Mother Jones as a "credible" source. It's well known to be hyper-partisan left and more of a biased magazine than a news source. So consider it an opinion piece rather than a factual story. To be sure, there are far worse sources. Check out the latest Skeptical Enquirer issue. It has an article showing media bias across a number of sources.

[quote]The question, then, is WHY do we allow these manufacturers to continue these practices?[quote]

WHY do we absolve the slobs throwing the trash around and blame the manufacturers? They aren't telling people to toss empty Bud cans out the window. The people make the choice themselves. Get on their case.

I do agree that there is way too much packaging for stuff and that drives my choices at the store. That's a much better way of effecting change than contacting a politician.
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Ski
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PostThu Jul 11, 2019 6:17 pm 
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joker, it was an almost a rhetorical question, because (unless I'm mixed up again) I've seen attempts to get deposits on bottles and cans passed here with citizen initiatives and they failed.
I doubt there's a great deal of political will in Olympia to go up against Coca-Cola and the other beverage manufacturers here.

Arginine, I suppose that the way to find out would be to start digging and find out who really paid for all those television advertisements we were watching in the 1960s.
Obviously, I was misinformed, as I thought they were paid for with federal funding.
Whether "Mother Jones" is "left" or "right" isn't an indicator of whether or not the statements in the article are true - fact doesn't change because of political affiliation.

No one has suggested that individuals not be held accountable for their own actions, but in the case of disposable beverage containers and food containers and all other things disposable and designed for single use, the manufacturers most certainly are complicit in burying the planet in garbage.

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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seattlenativemike
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PostFri Jul 12, 2019 2:13 pm 
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This WTA post calling out a few guys who had campfires and left cig butts around Minotaur Lake really aggravates

WTA Post
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