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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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 Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 pm |
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| CarriesNineFires wrote: | | Hell, it probably won't even establish itself because it's sensitive to so many factors. It's that kind of animal. |
Umm, grizzlies are pretty adaptable. They can live almost anywhere from near deserts to rain forests.
They can eat almost anything.
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wanderwild
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 333 | TRs | Pics
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| CarriesNineFires wrote: | | how often do you encounter black bears in the backcountry? Rarely, and they flee immediately upon your arrival. |
On saturday night I had a black bear circling/in camp for about 2 hours after dark. The bear was not aggressive towards me/the tent, but making noise did not scare him off. Established camp about 9 miles from US 20.
"Whatever your mountain, climb on."
"Whatever your mountain, climb on."
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:36 pm |
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| Bedivere wrote: | | Cyclopath wrote: | | Bedivere wrote: | | See, I'm lazy. I admit it. I don't like carrying bear canisters and having to change clothes after cooking a meal, and having to prepare my meals however-many yards away from my campsite.
I grew up with the Cascades being a relatively benign environment. I've enjoyed keeping all my clothes together and sitting in front of my tent cooking a pan full of trout in butter & olive oil.
There are plenty of places where there are Grizzlies. I went to one last summer. We heard wolves nearby, but never saw any Grizzlies. If the North Cascades of Washington remain, for all intents-and-purposes, a grizzly-free zone I'll be happy. |
This is why I want a taco truck in the upper Enchantment basin. Aasgard is a long slog, I don't really want to carry my own food up that endless pile of rubble. |
You're pretty good at the whole false equivalency thing.
Never has been a taco truck in the Enchantments, nor anything like it. How you came up with this to bolster your opinion is baffling. Being safe from attack by a large, unpredictable predator is nothing at all like having delicious tacos on tap at 7000'.
You're also good at projecting.
| Cyclopath wrote: | | But hiking is about visiting nature. It's giving up the comfort and safety of home, accepting nature's terms. |
Whatever hiking is to you, it may not be the same for others. I'll leave it at that.
| Cyclopath wrote: | | Having a healthy population is part of the long term survival of an endangered species. I don't think being lazy anxious in unnecessary recreation is a fair reason to eliminate a species, either locally or entirely. |
To that first sentence - I agree with Bernardo that this area is not critical to the survival of Grizzlies overall.
To that second sentence - This is a strawman. The Grizzlies are not being eliminated, that's already been taken care of in the area in question. If they were there, I would not be in favor of eliminating them. Furthermore, no one said anything about Grizzlies overall, we're talking specifically about the N. Cascades here. As mentioned, I visited Grizzly country last year and took the requisite precautions. It added weight, bulk, considerable expense, and used up precious time on that trip. That's the price of admission to play there. It has not in my lifetime been the price of admission to play here in the N. Cascades and again, I'm perfectly happy with maintaining the status quo for my own admittedly selfish reasons.
If the bears come back to the area naturally, so be it. Just please don't hasten the process along. |
There's no reason to make this personal.
I spent the weekend in the Enchantments, and everybody I asked about the taco truck thought it was hilarious. I really would have loved to top out in Aasgard and have a plate full of freshly made Beyond Meat chicken tacos. Would have loved some iced cream too until I got to the pass and felt the bitter wind.
But I know taco trucks don't grow on larch trees. And I went anyway. Eating protein bars and dried mandarin orange slices.
Like you, I would have preferred hot tacos, but knew the price of admission, and was happy to experience nature on her own terms.
Grizzles have been part of the North Cascades long before humans. The place is less natural without them. They belong there, in the most remote corners. We'll still go, knowing the price of admission, and we'll still have great times and being back incredible pictures.
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:42 pm |
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| wanderwild wrote: | | CarriesNineFires wrote: | | how often do you encounter black bears in the backcountry? Rarely, and they flee immediately upon your arrival. |
On saturday night I had a black bear circling/in camp for about 2 hours after dark. The bear was not aggressive towards me/the tent, but making noise did not scare him off. Established camp about 9 miles from US 20. |
Please make sure you report this.
This is not normal behavior. I would guess this bear has had human food, or perhaps someone fried some trout right near where you set up you tent...
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
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Location: The Hermitage |
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
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Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:07 pm |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | There's no reason to make this personal. |
Apologies. I didn't intend a personal attack, but I found your taco truck example didn't really make any sense to me. Sure, tacos on Aasgard would be great, but if I'm going to be lazy, why not an escalator?
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:11 pm |
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Slippery slope isnt always a fallacy...
You are wanting to make habitat decisions with lasting impacts based on your convenience...
Tacos at the top seems pretty nice to me. They could fly the taco truck up there with a helicopter.
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Sky Hiker
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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Location: outside |
| Pahoehoe wrote: | | CarriesNineFires wrote: | | Hell, it probably won't even establish itself because it's sensitive to so many factors. It's that kind of animal. |
Umm, grizzlies are pretty adaptable. They can live almost anywhere from near deserts to rain forests.
They can eat almost anything. |
If they were so adaptable they would have continued to thrive there in the past since they were there before and currently are. It's not like they were hunted out or there was a bounty on them. The North Cascades is for the most part some steep stuff which is less favorable for them to coexist and reproduce. Its not like the Yellowstone where the grizzlies can go in the lower elevations and then up high in the fall to look for moths. They will be hit by cars, shot, removed by WDFW,etc. Just my opinion
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:55 am |
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| Sky Hiker wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | CarriesNineFires wrote: | | Hell, it probably won't even establish itself because it's sensitive to so many factors. It's that kind of animal. |
Umm, grizzlies are pretty adaptable. They can live almost anywhere from near deserts to rain forests.
They can eat almost anything. |
If they were so adaptable they would have continued to thrive there in the past since they were there before and currently are. It's not like they were hunted out or there was a bounty on them. The North Cascades is for the most part some steep stuff which is less favorable for them to coexist and reproduce. Its not like the Yellowstone where the grizzlies can go in the lower elevations and then up high in the fall to look for moths. They will be hit by cars, shot, removed by WDFW,etc. Just my opinion |
They absolutely were hunted out. While there wasnt an official bounty on them, they were hated and many people were out to kill them.
They reproduce slowly. A female bear has litters about every 4 years if conditions are good. Half of the cubs dont survive to adulthood.
Bears cannot sustain high levels of hunting because of this slow reproduction.
Glacier National Park is also steep and rugged. Bears do great there.
I get that there is a lot of fear surrounding Grizzly bears, but let's stick to facts please.
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schifferj
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Joined: 07 Mar 2015
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Location: 509 |
Most of my hiking is done in Grizzly Bear country (Selkirks of Idaho, Cabinet Mountains Wilderness Montana, Glacier National Park, Yaak River Valley MT, PNWT. Over the years I've had three encounters with Grizzly Bears; much like Black Bears they in my case have always turned tail and run.
What I do have a problem with is government organizations and advocacy groups trying to protect the bears from me. There are areas in the Selkirks where trail head access is available for a scant four weeks due to closures to protect the bears. A year ago I faced a trail closure near Sullivan Lake because a tagged Grizzly Bear was 40 miles from that trail. There is an advocacy group working out of Missoula Mt trying to get the Pacific Northwest Trail moved from its current location to a new location that parallels US HW 2. This to protect the 20 or so bears known to live in the Yaak River area. I've hiked the PNWT in the Montana/Idaho area and never seen a hint of another hiker but the hoards of hikers are going to disturb bear habitat.
Not sure why but whenever a "bad" Grizzly gets relocated its up to my corner of the world i.e the Cabinets or the Selkirks.
So, reintroduce them but they need no protection from me.
I would be scared spitless if a bear of any variety spent two hours roaming around my campsite. That is a bear that needs to be relocated to the Cabinet Mountains
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:26 am |
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Grizzly bears are endangered. Humans aren't.
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hbb
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hbb
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:28 am |
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| Sky Hiker wrote: | | It's not like they were hunted out or there was a bounty on them. |
This is not accurate.
| Quote: | | The fur return records transcribed at Fort Vancouver show the HBC [Husdon Bay Company] harvested a total of 3,188 grizzly
bear pelts from five trading posts bordering the North Cascades ecosystem between years 1826 and
1857 |
Source: https://irma.nps.gov/DataStore/Reference/Profile/2253705
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cascadetraverser
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I agree with the concerns as above that question the bureaucracy and likely multiple restrictions that will occur with reintroduction of Grizzlies in the NCNP. To those who say it won’t happen, I for one don’t believe it.
Although I don’t have any philosophical problem with reintroduction, given the backlog of projects In the NPS, is this really the best way to spend the shrinking tax dollar that goes to the NPS?
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