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Tom
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PostMon Aug 19, 2019 2:22 pm 
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See OP. Let's try to keep spray and politics out of this thread.
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xrp
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PostTue Aug 20, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
xrp wrote:
Dave Workman wrote:
Not quite sure what's happening here. Was the dog barking and growling and aggressive, or just coming up the trail?

I wasn't sure what was happening either. It was running up the trail barking. I've not been around dogs that much, so I couldn't translate his intention or accent. It wasn't walking/trotting up the trail. That's an easy difference to see.

Wow, maybe that wasn't the time to pull out your gun. Knowing what the **** is going on is one of the first things you should have under control  dizzy.gif

* Coming back to remove the political spray

Dogs move considerably faster than humans. With regards to humans whose intentions arenít known, there is the 21 foot rule. The average human can cover this distance faster than the average person can clear a handgun from a holster, take aim and discharge the first round.

Since dogs move faster, are smaller targets, this particular dogís intention was unknown and I highly value my well being over a strange dog...well, it was an easy decision for me.
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Dave Workman
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PostWed Aug 21, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Off leash or not, I think that if you are an adult you can control yourself long enough to see where the owners are at, come on now. Interesting that you cite the archaic old 21 foot rule, want to tell us more about that?

Well, the 21-foot "rule," (It's not a rule, really) which is also referred to as the "Tueller principle" (for the guy who researched it, Dennis Tueller) applies primarily to self-defense against bad guys. I interviewed him once when he was still a police officer down in Utah and the subject of animal attacks never came up.

It's not necessarily an "archaic old" rule. It'll still hold up in court.

But as to drawing the sidearm. Wouldn't be my first choice on a dog. Now, a cougar or bear? This is where judgment comes into play. Use your best and let the cooler head prevail.

Remember, a gun on the trail is a piece of emergency survival equipment. If there's no real emergency, just leave it where it is. Some people opt for bear spray, and that's fine. Even a ski pole can double as a defensive weapon in a pinch.

Against a nasty dog, a swift kick in the right spot might be all the solution one needs.  wink.gif  But that's why I asked earlier about the dog's behavior. A mutt just badooping up the trail shouldn't concern anybody. A mutt being chased up the trail by a grizzly...now, that might even get me excited, and I'm an old guy!  biggrin.gif


I suspect an overreaction here. Chalk this up to a learning experience. Doesn't sound like anybody was hurt. File it under 'Lessons Learned' and get back on the trail. Adventures are waiting for you.

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"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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xrp
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PostWed Aug 21, 2019 7:56 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
xrp wrote:
I wasn't sure what was happening either

Just in case you forgot what you wrote. Would you have said these words to the owners in the moments after taking action?

If the dog had closed the distance more (say to within 10 yards) and acted hostile (growling, baring teeth, etc), I wouldnít have said that. I would have passed them going downhill and told them that their dog was demonstrating hostile intent. It wasnít on a leash and wasnít under control. Iíd let them know about how much further ahead on the trail they could find their dead dog. Iíd also let them know that thankfully for them, it didnít injure me, so I wouldnít be pressing charges.

Quote:
Do you think you would accept them yourself as any kind of half-@ssed excuse if such an action were taken against you or yours? This kind of escalation will not help anyone's "safety" out there rolleyes.gif You're not really thinking about the consequences of that 'easy decision'.

Off leash or not, I think that if you are an adult you can control yourself long enough to see where the owners are at, come on now. Interesting that you cite the archaic old 21 foot rule, want to tell us more about that?

Dave already explained the 21 foot rule. As he stated, it would hold up in court. As far as escalation...I guess you can read dogsí minds? Should I search for the owners after the dog has attacked me and has its teeth dug into my arm or leg? Did you really think that through?

Drawing from the holster isnít half-assed, it is smart when a threat is perceived. Drawing from a holster (to the low ready) takes the most time in a self-defense situation. There are classes available for you if you wish to get further educated. As far as being a dog owner taking your dog on a hike in the National Forest, keep it leashed or under verbal control. If your dog acts threatening towards people or attacks, itís your fault, not the victimsí fault.

Look, I donít hit the trail looking for animals to blow away. Iím not a hunter. I even tell my 4-year old son not to stomp on insects that we come across at the park. Additionally, this wasnít a poodle, Black Labrador or a Corgi, it was a Rottweiler or some Rottweiler-mix dog.
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xrp
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PostThu Aug 22, 2019 11:34 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Dave Workman wrote:
Dave Tueller

Sorry, who? Double check that. I'm familiar with this 'rule', so even if we assume that this magical 21 foot ring would apply equally to a dog as to a bipedal knife wielder, let's review the details here:

xrp wrote:
I saw it about 75-100 yards downhill from me. No owner was nearby the dog. I stopped quickly and pulled my P245.

Let's be conservative and say ~225 feet. 10x the 21 foot circumference.

xrp wrote:
Thankfully, the dog stopped abruptly about 20-ish yards from me and ran back downhill ... to its humans.

Still 60 feet away, so we have XRP standing on the PCT with a drawn sidearm while the dog covered most of a football field, with the owners downtrail which XRP would have to assume was the case.

Let's also take a moment to apply a little common sense, and consider the plethora of antiquated laws from the 1800's/early 1900's that are still perfectly valid in court today. Just because there is a law that says you can do something, does not mean you should. Use your head.

xrp wrote:
Iíd let them know about how much further ahead on the trail they could find their dead dog.

xrp wrote:
I donít hit the trail looking for animals to blow away.

Do these statements sound like they came from the same person?

xrp wrote:
If your dog acts threatening towards people or attacks, itís your fault, not the victimsí fault.

That's fair. But it's not an all or nothing proposition. If you dial your response to 11, you're going to get the same back. Handle the situation with the responsibility you should be practicing as the owner of a sidearm. I don't see any responsibility at all here, and that's why I responded in the first place. That self righteous self defense won't get you far.

I see you're still Monday morning quarterbacking. This tells me that you're a really just a big male-phallus-head.

Dogs run 2x-3x faster than humans. Did you know that? Maybe you can figure out the math vs the human-related "21 foot rule."

In the end, no animal was killed, I wasn't bitten, yet you keep fuqn keep posting your Monday morning QB cow manure. You weren't there. You don't know jackshyt about the circumstances. Oh, unless you were the irresponsible dog owner that day.
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Aug 22, 2019 11:47 am 
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My fave in this round so far, is the implication that a rule of thumb is false because it's claimed to be "archaic".

"Magical" is a close second. Both are word weapons devoid of valid content or applicability in the context in which they were applied.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Doppelganger
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PostFri Aug 23, 2019 7:34 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
the implication that a rule of thumb is false because it's claimed to be "archaic".

The 21 foot circle is arbitrary to begin with, as it must be based on an average bipedal speed. This rule does not allow for myriad external factors, outliers are not accurately represented in this model. Variances of any kind require that the 21 foot circle be expanded or contracted accordingly. The size and shape of that circle starts changing fast - is Uwe Boll coming at you? Are you uphill or downhill? What surfaces are each of you on, what features lie between the two of you? None of these factors are accounted for, and the model does not allow for their accounting or representation.
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Aug 23, 2019 4:10 pm 
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I would not mind running into a person open carrying on a trail a hundred times less than an unleashed pit bull.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Dave Workman
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PostSun Aug 25, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Doppelganger wrote:
Sorry, who? Double check that. I'm familiar with this 'rule', so even if we assume that this magical 21 foot ring would apply equally to a dog as to a bipedal knife wielder, let's review the details here:

My mistake. Dennis Tueller.  I claim old guy status.  Memory fail.   winksmile.gif
Read all about it:
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

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"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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Dave Workman
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PostSun Aug 25, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
I would not mind running into a person open carrying on a trail a hundred times less than an unleashed pit bull.

Not sure I get that Mal. Perhaps I don't really want to.

But this particular discussion is on the verge of getting a bit out of hand.
So let's sum it up and move on, eh?

Guy encounters a loose dog on the trail. Guy clears the holster.
The action is critiqued and it is suggested to be an overreaction.
Nobody was hurt, dog backpedalled and everyone survived to discuss it here.

In the midst of it, the old guy mistakenly called Mr. Tueller by the wrong first name. He quickly edited his OP on this subject to reflect the error.

>>>>>>>
So...where's everybody going over the upcoming Labor Day holiday weekend, eh?

I remind folks as is normal for me this time of year....Grouse hunting season opens Sept. 1. To be followed in about six weeks by the opening of big game hunting season in mid-October.

That is preceded by the annual high country early buck hunts, Sept. 15-25.

And as Sgt. Phil Esterhaus used to say, "Let's be careful out there."  up.gif

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"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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Tom
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PostSun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 pm 
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I think he was saying the risk of an unleashed pitbull harming you is 100 times more. Sounds about right.
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Chief Joseph
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PostSun Aug 25, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Lol ..big deal, he pulled his sidearm out just in case, better to be prepared than not.

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Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Aug 25, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Exactly Tom

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Anne Elk
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PostSun Aug 25, 2019 11:12 pm 
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I don't have any issues with people packing a personal side-arm on a trail; given some of the crazy stuff that's been happening to hikers these years, I've often wondered whether hiking alone is even safe anymore, especially for women; but I guess I'm not motivated or scared enough (given the odds) to get one.

But FWIW re the dog situation: my first response would never be to pull a gun on someone's unleashed pet on a trail.  Maybe those who pack and are sufficiently unfamiliar with canines that the first response to a dog running up a trail is to pull the gun out, perhaps having a  "plan B"along - a canister of capsacin (there are small ones that fit in the palm of your hand) or an air horn should be considered.  Even Kwai-chang Caine used his most lethal moves last, Grasshopper.   ninja.gif   Just sayin'.   wink.gif

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Doppelganger
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PostMon Aug 26, 2019 6:53 am 
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Deleting my spray. I wasn't there, wtf do I know about what went down. I'll try to think before I take action going forward.
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