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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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 Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:42 pm |
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| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | Tom wrote: | | Outside of wilderness I for one have always been a proponent for multi use and I challenge you to find statements to the contrary not only for myself but many users here. I don't even have a problem with specific areas for motorcycles or non-motorized but I don't think it makes sense to throw e-bokes into motorcycle territory either. |
As Harvey Manning used to say: Multiple Use = Multiple Abuse. Keep the wheels on roads and off of trails. |
Why keep bikes out of the wilderness? They shrink the landscape, meaning they allow people to travel through faster...
Most of the abuse and damage comes from camping... social trails, tent platforms, campfire rings, poop, wildlife getting human food..
That's all camping and bikes, especially ebikes cover more ground, thus camp spots will at least be farther apart. More day trips, less over nights, less impact..
I mean really, keeping bikes out of wilderness is just elitist.
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Tom
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Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Tom
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:29 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | Do you mean that you do NOT think it's a good idea to allow these "e-bikes" onto trails where currently dirt bikes (motorcycles) are allowed? |
I don't think it's unreasonable to allow both where motorcycles are allowed. Why not? Hikers and/or MTBers can go where motorcycles are allowed. If they are put off by the fumes, noise, etc. they can go elsewhere. Why not e-bikes? FS says they can only ride where motorcycles can. Silly. Just saying there needs to be more classifications.
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Tom
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Tom
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:03 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | I mean really, keeping bikes out of wilderness is just elitist. |
Depends on the rationale for keeping bikes out. You saying the original authors of the wilderness act were elitist? It's not as if bicycles weren't around or that they didn't contemplate them.
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SwitchbackFisher
Boot buster
Joined: 24 Feb 2018
Posts: 364 | TRs | Pics
Location: Wa |
| Tom wrote: | | Ski wrote: | | Do you mean that you do NOT think it's a good idea to allow these "e-bikes" onto trails where currently dirt bikes (motorcycles) are allowed? |
I don't think it's unreasonable to allow both where motorcycles are allowed. Why not? Hikers and/or MTBers can go where motorcycles are allowed. If they are put off by the fumes, noise, etc. they can go elsewhere. Why not e-bikes? FS says they can only ride where motorcycles can. Silly. Just saying there needs to be more classifications. |
The usfs already has difficulty having the resources to manage OHV users, and they are getting out of hand. Adding more rules and classifications will likely just make it harder to manage.
OHV are required to be registered in WA to use these trails I think it's possible to argue that a Ebike might need to be registered too, not that that will help the USFS any.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Tom
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Tom
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:34 pm |
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Can't see registration being of much use other than adding needless bureaucracy. e-bikes are not ORV and do not need to be registered, at least not e-bikes that are street legal (class 1-3). From what I can tell the FS decision not to allow is due to how the existing regulations define motorized vehicle and not funding issues.
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Brucester
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Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 1102 | TRs | Pics
Location: Greenwood |
I remember being asked at Tokul (Snoqualmie Tree Farm) if my fat bike was an e-bike... So yes, e-bikes can be orv's…
It seems all laws go out the window when folks get on e-bikes. No helmets and no rules. It's like Disney World for adults. Zip through traffic lights, not a care in the world.... There's this guy on Capitol Hill who blares music on his e-bike.... Imagine this on your dream vacation to a national park!
Fatter tires? Not just for snow or sand. Perfect for gaps in pavement!
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:38 am |
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| Brucester wrote: | | There's this guy on Capitol Hill who blares music on his e-bike.... Imagine this on your dream vacation to a national park! |
Have you been to Camp Muir recently?, the sounds of HipHop to KPop from Bluetooth speakers hanging from a backpacks compete over the snowfield.
I've also recently started seeing folks with large speaker stacks mounted on carts rolling down the sidewalk and paths so they can share their tunes with everyone within a 200 yard radius.
Humans...
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:58 am |
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| NacMacFeegle wrote: | | As Harvey Manning used to say: Multiple Use = Multiple Abuse. Keep the wheels on roads and off of trails. |
Great.
Stop supporting closing roads and reducing vehicle access outside wilderness, or closing them and then excluding some users because you made it a trail.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:07 am |
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| Doppelganger wrote: | | Tom wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | I mean really, keeping bikes out of wilderness is just elitist. |
Depends on the rationale for keeping bikes out. You saying the original authors of the wilderness act were elitist? It's not as if bicycles weren't around or that they didn't contemplate them. |
| Let's just pretend for a moment that Pahoehoe wrote: | | I mean really, keeping cars and RVs out of wilderness is just elitist. |
Slope starts to become slippery. Gotta go with Tom here, nothing elitist about saying "if you want it, you gotta walk to it". That's about as simple as it gets. |
Then what's wrong with if you want it you have to use your own power?
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:18 am |
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Obviously, because it has to be the using of your own power in the way they already approve of.
These discussions would be much simpler if we had folks simply admitting that they want what they want because they want it, instead of trying to dress up the defenses of totally arbitrary personal value judgments as some kind of objective metrics which do not involve their own arbitrary desires.
This is why the defenses of bike vs foot vs e bike vs motorcycle vs etc are not self consistent.
I may not agree with Pahoehoe on policy, but he's the closest to being honest when he simply admits his policy goals orbit keeping the masses out.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Schroder
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Schroder
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:46 am |
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The notion that bikes don't do damage to trails is ridiculous. All you have to do is take a look at any trail with a series of switchbacks and try to walk on the ramps created from them skidding around every one of them. Horses may make a mess on soft ground but even they don't displace the tread the way a tire will.
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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Slugman
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:53 am |
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I've hiked several trails that allow bikes and didn't see any damage. Reality is ridiculous I guess.
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SwitchbackFisher
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Joined: 24 Feb 2018
Posts: 364 | TRs | Pics
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| Doppelganger wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | Then what's wrong with if you want it you have to use your own power? |
Technically you would be augmenting your own power. I would even go so far as to say that clamoring for "equal biking rights in the wilderness" sounds exponentially more elitist to me, almost comical  Why only people with bikes? Telling people they have to walk is about as non-elitist as we can get in this situation imo.
| Let's just pretend for a moment that Pahoehoe wrote: | | I mean really, keeping push lawnmowers and shopping carts out of wilderness is just elitist. |
You're still using your own power after all  |
Do they make fat tire shopping carts I get sick of having to wear a backpack. Not to long ago I saw someone use a wheel barrow to pack an in necessary amount of gear to a nearby lake in a wilderness area. I also saw piles of fresh human poo (about 2 feet off the trail) and that group was the only one there. We had a chat.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
I may not be the smartest, I may not be the strongest, but I don't want to be. I only want to be the best I can be.
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Schroder
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Schroder
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:55 am |
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| Slugman wrote: | | I've hiked several trails that allow bikes and didn't see any damage. |
Did I need to specify steep dirt trails? The point that I was trying to make is that there is some terrain where bikes can do significant damage to the track that other users, including horses, won't. The most noticeable being on steep switchbacks where all the dirt gets piled up on the outer side of the curve from skidding and becomes treacherously steep on foot.
If you want to see an example of large numbers of bikes, horses, and hikers on a network of trails go to Anacortes Community Forest Lands or Whidbey Kettles. Every intersection is marked on which user is allowed on a trail branch - bikes and horses eliminated from the steepest or wettest tracks.
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joker
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Joined: 12 Aug 2006
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joker
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:07 am |
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| Slugman wrote: | | I've hiked several trails that allow bikes and didn't see any damage. Reality is ridiculous I guess. |
I've seen this, and I've ALSO seen what Schroder reported. It depends on both the nature of the trail - particularly how steep it gets especially in corners/curves - and how loose the trail surface is as well as whether the people who tend to ride on it follow the "no skidding" dictum I learned from I think IMBA or some similar organization's set of rules for riding way back when I rode a mountain bike a lot. I live near Gold Creek County Park (King County Parks, on outskirts of Woodinville) and there's one dowhill where I see significant ruts appear periodically from just one pass by one or more bikers (i.e. I walked it the day before when there were no ruts, and subsequently I've been seeing deeper and deeper when ruts forming which now are starting to channel runoff which just accelerates the erosion) - these ruts are after a decent straight stretch of wide downhill followed by a decent curve, and it's obvious that these riders are skidding when they hit the curve rather than anticipating it by slowing w/o skidding BEFORE hitting the curve.
But yeah, if everyone rides the way they're supposed to, this won't happen. FWIW I've also been seeing more and more newly braided trails forming on various close-in hikes (the "abandoned trail" up Silver Peak is an example; there has been braiding up there since I started hiking it a quarter century ago but in the past two years a bunch more has appeard - same deal with the steep part of the trail up Bandera, etc.) which has come from hikers trying to find a more forgiving route than the muddy or rocky existing trail. So erosion from ill advised user behavior is hardly unique to bikes. But nonetheless it's impressive how much dirt movement one pass from a crew of bikers can cause in the right spot.
| RandyHiker wrote: | | I've also recently started seeing folks with large speaker stacks mounted on carts rolling down the sidewalk and paths so they can share their tunes with everyone within a 200 yard radius. |
Radio Rahim returns!!
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