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Ski
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Tom wrote:
A good bit of the confusion comes down to the title of the article being disingenuous and intended to mislead rather than highlight e-bikes will only be allowed where bikes are already permitted and that superintendents are given discretion to determine what’s appropriate for their park.

Agreed.

It's not noted in the article, but they wouldn't be allowed in designated wilderness areas either in accordance with existing federal statutes. That would include virtually every trail within Mt. Rainier National Park and Olympic National Park, unless I'm mistaken.

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RandyHiker
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Damian wrote:
Schroder wrote:
take a look at any trail with a series of switchbacks and try to walk on the ramps created from them skidding around every one of them.

Where?

I've observed cinder block reinforcement on the switchbacks on the Miller peak trail in the Teanaway.  Motorcycles are permitted there and  numerous trails nearby.  Motoheads invest a considerable amount of time and effort in grooming the trails open to motorbike usage to enjoy their fun.  The cinder blocks are embedded sideways in the thread and soil compacted tightly around and in them.  It makes for a surface that is pretty durable for bike usage, but a bit awkward for hikers.

I've encountered motoheads using this and other trails in the area while hiking and IME they have been safe and respectful.
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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
I have since come to find out that ebikes aren't allowed on the John Wayne Trail.

Just curious where you heard this?  In researching it seems they are allowed on the John Wayne Trail.
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RandyHiker
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 7:48 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Brian R wrote:
I have since come to find out that ebikes aren't allowed on the John Wayne Trail.

Just curious where you heard this?  In researching it seems they are allowed on the John Wayne Trail.

https://reviews.mtbr.com/washington-state-clarifies-e-bike-rules-on-trails

Quote:
The law establishes three classes of e-bikes based on pedaling and speed capabilities. It also distinguishes use by riding surface. Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are allowed on paved – but not natural surface – trails unless otherwise specified by local land managers.

https://parks.state.wa.us/521/Palouse-to-Cascades

Quote:
No motorized vehicles are allowed on the trail with the exception of snowmobiles in winter, which are allowed from Stampede Pass Road to Cabin Creek.
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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 8:23 pm 
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These links seem to indicate they are allowed on the John Wayne Trail:

https://outthereoutdoors.com/new-washington-state-e-bike-policy/

https://www.rco.wa.gov/documents/rcfb/BoardMaterials/Presentations/2018/4.25.18/ITEM_11_E-bike.pdf

Also seems confirmed by Toni Droscher, spokeswoman for the Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission in the Seattle Times version of the article:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation/apnewsbreak-coming-to-national-park-trails-electric-bikes/

"E-bike use is allowed on all six of Washington State Parks’ long-distance trails … [which] have some kind of improved surface, such as pavement or gravel."

Although she also claims e-bikes are allowed on natural surface trails which is clearly wrong so who knows. dizzy.gif
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Ski
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Good grief.
It's possible that both the National Park Service and Washington State Parks will need to clarify exactly where e-bikes are allowed and where they are not.
The public should not be relying on The Seattle Times or any other publication or website for information concerning regulations on public lands.

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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 10:44 pm 
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WA e-bike law says class 1 and 2 e-bikes can ride on shared-use paths unless local jurisdiction restricts them.  It also says the local regulation must be consistent along the entire length of a shared-use path that crosses two or more jurisdictional boundaries in order for the local regulation to be enforceable. On designated non-motorized trails with a natural surface they are disallowed by default unless local jurisdiction allows them.  So as I interpret things, class 1 and 2 e-bikes are allowed on the John Wayne trail by default (due to non-natural surface) unless WA State Parks specifically disallows them or deems them to be motorized vehicles.  Not only that but I think the DNR (who also has jurisdiction) would need to agree.
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 11:14 pm 
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^ okay, Tom.... I am already confused....

...sounds to me like some public lands management agencies need to figure out how to communicate the regulations in plain English if they expect to get any sort of compliance.

confusion on part of users = non-compliance.
failure on part of lands management agencies to communicate clearly to users = non-compliance.

this is not rocket science.

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Tom
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PostSun Sep 08, 2019 11:26 pm 
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No, they don't need to communicate anything unless they want to (1) disallow e-bikes on shared paths with a non-natural surface (e.g. paved or gravel) or (2) allow e-bikes on "non-motorized" trails with a natural surface.  It's actually pretty simple.
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 7:46 am 
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What the heck is a natural surface trail? When I have been on work parties we are always supposed to dig down to mineral soil. The act of making a trail precludes it being a natural surface. When making MTB trails in Canada we paved the route over soft ground with local stone.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 8:35 am 
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Ski wrote:
^ okay, Tom.... I am already confused....

...sounds to me like some public lands management agencies need to figure out how to communicate the regulations in plain English if they expect to get any sort of compliance.

confusion on part of users = non-compliance.
failure on part of lands management agencies to communicate clearly to users = non-compliance.

this is not rocket science.

It seems to be. 

First of all, we have people who haven't the faintest notion of what an E bike does, or how it rides, or that it really isn't different from a regular bike in that the rider controls how fast, where, and how it operates.     

I would be curious to know, 'cept none of the "experts" on this forum would answer, how many have actually ridden an ebike.  I would guess that very few  have.  That is the major problem in ebike legislation.  They are new, and well organized already existing lobby groups fear them.  Note the bits about invading "my" space. 

E bikes have no large lobbying group, yet.  People For Bikes supports e bike riding and has done a bit to help legislate, but for the most part, it can be compared to when snowboarders started up on ski hills, except e bikes don't fall off chairlifts and trip up others who are on the chair with them.  Which brings up another matter.  Isn't having your mountain bike ferried up the hill on a chairlift "cheating"? 

Frankly, I just want to ride rails to trails type paths, and two tracks in the woods for my recreational riding.  And, I am hoping to build up stamina to ride a regular bike long distance.  Regardless on what folks have posted, riding an e bike does help with fitness levels.  Guess the naysayers, if at all, have only ridden with the maximum assist or just using a throttle.  We who own the bikes know it to be different.  My new bike is even harder to pedal up The Steep Hill than my Radmini.  That ought to make the "you must suffer and not have fun" crowd happy. 

We will be taking our Radminis up to the woods today, along with an unleashed dog.   eek.gif I'm sure the world will inch closer to doomsday because of two old ladies on e bikes and one unleashed dog.  Stay away from the Loup Loup area today if you want solitude.


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Joseph
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 8:40 am 
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Tom wrote:
I'm confused.  What are you opposed to?  Bikes in national parks?  Or allowing e-bikes where bikes can go?  You don't seem to really know where e-bikes can ride.

if your question is directed at me (not sure since you didn't quote anything), then my answer is that I think I made it pretty clear that I'm opposed to these e-bikes in national parks.  Let me know if you need further clarification.
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Joseph
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 8:43 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
We will be taking our Radminis up to the woods today, along with an unleashed dog.  eek.gif I'm sure the world will inch closer to doomsday because of two old ladies on e bikes and one unleashed dog.  Stay away from the Loup Loup area today if you want solitude.

Have at it - I have no idea what the loup loup area is, but if dogs are supposed to be leashed there, then you really ought to leash it.
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Tom
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 9:38 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
What the heck is a natural surface trail? When I have been on work parties we are always supposed to dig down to mineral soil. The act of making a trail precludes it being a natural surface. When making MTB trails in Canada we paved the route over soft ground with local stone.

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.710

Quote:
(9) Except as otherwise provided in this section, an individual shall not operate an electric-assisted bicycle or motorized foot scooter on a trail that is specifically designated as nonmotorized and that has a natural surface tread that is made by clearing and grading the native soil with no added surfacing materials. A local authority or agency of this state having jurisdiction over a trail described in this subsection may allow the operation of an electric-assisted bicycle or motorized foot scooter on that trail.
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Tom
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 10:34 am 
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Joseph wrote:
Tom wrote:
I'm confused.  What are you opposed to?  Bikes in national parks?  Or allowing e-bikes where bikes can go?  You don't seem to really know where e-bikes can ride.

if your question is directed at me (not sure since you didn't quote anything), then my answer is that I think I made it pretty clear that I'm opposed to these e-bikes in national parks.  Let me know if you need further clarification.

You responded to your claim of "lots of places where people can enjoy riding the e-bikes and get out in the wilderness." with "anywhere you can legally ride a regular pedal bike".  That didn't make much sense because it isn't legal to ride an e-bike anywhere you can ride a regular pedal bike.  The order you seem opposed to gives discretion to allow this.  I am confused why you are opposed since you seem to be in favor of allowing people to ride e-bikes where they can legally ride a regular pedal bike.  I am guessing you just don't want to see bikes in national parks.
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