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NacMacFeegle
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PostMon Sep 02, 2019 4:22 pm 
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We don't need to be limited to traditional austere glass and steel skyscrapers and condominiums either - China is building new sustainable "forest cities" where the structures are covered in vegetation. https://mashable.com/article/green-cities-china/


Think of Seattle, it's downtown core surrounded not by suburbs, but by a ring of high density vertical forest super-blocks, with reclaimed farms and parks beyond. High speed public transit would provide quick and easy access to these new parks, as well as to reclaimed farm land so that farmers could live in the city and easily commute to work.

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PostMon Sep 02, 2019 7:05 pm 
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yeah... but do they drive those grass-covered cars like Bill Nye the Science Guy had? dizzy.gif

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treeswarper
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 4:51 am 
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Sounds like this is another case of Do As I Say, Not As I Do.    Or, everybody except me should live in a crowded building.

No thank you.

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 5:59 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Sounds like this is another case of Do As I Say, Not As I Do.    Or, everybody except me should live in a crowded building.

No thank you.

Would you prefer the 48 people per day moving into the Seattle metro to live in new apartments within the city limits or in a subdivision of the rural property next to yours?
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treeswarper
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 6:19 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Sounds like this is another case of Do As I Say, Not As I Do.    Or, everybody except me should live in a crowded building.

No thank you.

Would you prefer the 48 people per day moving into the Seattle metro to live in new apartments within the city limits or in a subdivision of the rural property next to yours?

It does not affect me.  I am far away.  It's just that certain people on here advocate lifestyles for OTHER people, and do not set an example.  Practice what you preach and set an example.  That's part of being a good leader.  Otherwise all your "planning" means nothing to me.

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RandyHiker
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 7:00 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Sounds like this is another case of Do As I Say, Not As I Do.    Or, everybody except me should live in a crowded building.

No thank you.

Would you prefer the 48 people per day moving into the Seattle metro to live in new apartments within the city limits or in a subdivision of the rural property next to yours?

It does not affect me.  I am far away.  It's just that certain people on here advocate lifestyles for OTHER people, and do not set an example.  Practice what you preach and set an example.  That's part of being a good leader.  Otherwise all your "planning" means nothing to me.

Currently I'm sitting in 3bdrm 1000 sq apartment occupied by 7 people , which is where I live when I'm in Manhattan.  My place in Bellevue is a bit bigger and part of a triplex building.  We are considering moving to a smaller place as this much larger than we need now that the nest is empty.
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Joey
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 8:54 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Currently I'm sitting in 3bdrm 1000 sq apartment occupied by 7 people , which is where I live when I'm in Manhattan.  My place in Bellevue is a bit bigger and part of a triplex building.

Currently I just came in from our garden which is directly adjacent to our home.  We grow most of the common vegetables and share with neighbors, friends and the local food bank.  We fill our chest freezer and store other produce in mouse-proof areas of our garage and barn.  We even invited NWH'ers to come pick from our record blueberry crop (only 1 person did so).  Did I mention that we are still picking strawberries?

No, we are not a farm.  Instead our property is large enough (and not shaded by large buildings) that we are able to grow a great deal of the food that we eat.

In very broad strokes, most of the land in the King County comprehensive plan is designated in one of 4 categories.
urban
rural (where we live)
agriculture
forestry

Yes, there are other categories as well, but I am talking big picture stuff.

If you look at a map showing soil types and then read the suitable uses for those soil types, you will see that most of the land designated rural is not suitable for farming.

Most of the rural-designated land is already zoned for a maximum density of 1 home per 5 acres and has been for close to 20 years.

There will be bucket loads of opportunity for everyone so inclined to participate in the next update to city and county comprehensive plans (to be adotped in 2024).  But promoting a utopian reality that is orders of magnitude different than what exists on the ground today does not strike me as useful input.
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RandyHiker
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 9:22 am 
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Joey wrote:
If you look at a map showing soil types and then read the suitable uses for those soil types, you will see that most of the land designated rural is not suitable for farming.

I'm sure this is true, however with all the industrial scale composing that King County is undertaking, I'm confident that it can be made into productive farmland if there is the will to do so.   For example in the 1880's Jews fleeing pogroms in eastern Europe migrated to what is now Israel.  They negotiated the purchasing land from the local authorities of the Ottoman empire,  but the only land that they were willing to sell were considered wastelands,  either desert or swamp.  It required decades of hard labor, but now these lands are now some of the most productive in the region.   If you observe the area in Google earth/satellite view, there is a start contrast in the level of greenery between Israel and Jordan, Syria. 

Currently we aren't prioritizing farm production locally because of the low cost and easy availability of produce from California, Mexico,  etc.
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NacMacFeegle
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PostTue Sep 03, 2019 6:44 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Currently we aren't prioritizing farm production locally because of the low cost and easy availability of produce from California, Mexico,  etc.

Something that is very likely to change in the near future given the ever increasing impacts of climate change. Converting suburbs into farms seems like a prudent move, especially considering how long such a project would take. There would be the added benefit of a great reduction in transportation costs.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 9:25 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Would you prefer the 48 people per day moving into the Seattle metro to live in new apartments within the city limits or in a subdivision of the rural property next to yours?

I wouldn't judge using that metric. The option I prefer is the one which does not involve using the State (or city, county, etc) against citizens choices to live where they want. If that means 48 per day moving into Seattle, great. If it means more subdivisions, that's fine too.

My goal is not forcing people where I want them, it's that they are free to live where they prefer (given the usual caveats concerning innocent people)

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 am 
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NacMacFeegle wrote:
Something that is very likely to change in the near future given the ever increasing impacts of climate change. Converting suburbs into farms seems like a prudent move, especially considering how long such a project would take. There would be the added benefit of a great reduction in transportation costs.

Ah, the top down mentality strikes again.

The increasing impacts of climate change have been dealt with by farmers for centuries. They know what to do if only their self assumed betters would stay out of the way.

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RandyHiker
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PostWed Sep 04, 2019 10:57 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
The option I prefer is the one which does not involve using the State (or city, county, etc) against citizens choices to live where they want.

Yeah, Los Angeles and most western cities tried that approach in the 40s through the 70s, the result was sprawling suburbs.

The GMA helps rural areas remain rural, so folks that don't want to live "In the anthill" aren't "assimilated into ever expanding suburbs.

Lyle is about 88 miles from Portland,  about same distance as from Malibu to Laguna.

So without the GMA, "The Anthill" would eventually come to you.
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 11:52 am 
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The result is what people wanted. Wether or not you like 'sprawling suburbs' is a value judgment. (As would be that claiming enviro stat "X" about suburbs show they are bad, etc, is something you like or dislike) Those choosing them clearly preferred them for whatever reasons they valued at the time of their choosing.

Some may argue some of the choosers would rather live in the city, but prices were too high, or for some other reason. Well, that too, is included in the axiomatically true statement about the value judgments.

Without the GMA, there would be lower home prices, far fewer homeless, and less interference in the private sphere.

I don't place myself above innocent people when it comes to the use of the State to interfere in their lives and choices. If the anthill came close to Lyle it's true I wouldn't like it, but in spite of that I would never support interference in their choices because it is not my place to impose law against them simply because I don't like the choices of innocent people.

I appreciate your argument though, but of course in it I see the seeds of the kind of attitude proffered by another poster where the little people shall be forced to live where they don't want to in order to serve the poster's values. I also appreciate there is some give and take here.

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NacMacFeegle
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 7:38 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Without the GMA, there would be lower home prices, far fewer homeless

If you think an abundance of housing is the solution to homelessness, just look at Detroit and it's half abandoned suburbs. Homelessness is a much more complex issue than a simple shortage of housing, as are housing prices.

MtnGoat wrote:
I would never support interference in their choices because it is not my place to impose law against them simply because I don't like the choices of innocent people.

Without laws humanity would inevitably destroy itself - even with them our future is hardly secure. The free choices of one generation come at great cost to future generations.

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RandyHiker
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PostMon Sep 09, 2019 10:19 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Without the GMA, there would be lower home prices, far fewer homeless, and less interference in the private sphere.

Why stop at the GMA?  During the great depression folks that were down on their luck lived in "Hoovervilles" , shanty towns of shacks with minimal facilities, but cheap living.  Those were bulldozed in the name of "Minimum building standards"   Shoulding it be people's personal choice whether they wish to live in crowded conditions with an open sewer?   

Also what's the deal with car safety standards, speed limits and restrictions on how much alcohol, MJ or Fentanyl I can consume while driving my car, that restricts my freedom.
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