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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12830 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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 Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:16 pm |
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| texasbb wrote: | | I tend to suspect the same thing, but neither of us can claim to understand all the dynamics. I also don't believe for a minute that "digital LNT" will have a noticeable impact on the user loads. |
No argument there.
Until somebody comes up with some magical way to accurately assess and quantify what, if any, impact "social media" has on user loads, we're all essentially shooting in the dark.
I would contend, nonetheless, that it's imprudent to dismiss out of hand the "anecdotal" when there's such a huge quantity of it, particularly in light of the fact that hard data is non-existent.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
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Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:43 pm |
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| markweth wrote: | | Also, when I worked for the USFS doing visitor information services I had many people come into the visitor center, show me a picture of an off-trail waterfall posted on social media on their smartphone and ask for directions. I really don't know of any example that illustrates a more clear connection. |
| Ski wrote: | | I suppose any reasonable person would be inclined to react the same way. I was, until I was standing in the ranger station and watched as a half a dozen people came in and asked the same question in the course of about half an hour. |
I bet there are 10 hikers who never set foot in a ranger station for every 1 who does. I also bet there are other differences between those two types of people.
For sure, people who learned about a destination from 100 Hikes don't stop at the RS and ask for directions, because the book includes them. Same with WTA. Basically the same with anybody who's introduced to a hike by a friend or acquaintance, they don't need to ask because they're shown.
I'm not saying your experience is wrong or invalid, I'm saying it isn't representative of the whole hiking community.
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Ski
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Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:54 pm |
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| cyclopath wrote: | | "...it isn't representative of the whole hiking community." |
... and neither markweth or I said anything that would imply that it did - both of those incidents may well have been anomalies.
none of this stuff being mentioned - whether it's Facebook or Instagram or "100 Hikes" or trip reports on WTA or nwhikers - can be applied globally. there are all sorts of variables that make that impossible, and that's probably why we do not have any sort of comprehensive hard data.
so we're back to.........
(a) do nothing
(b) take a deep breath, and stop and consider what we ourselves do, say, write, or post that may be contributing to the problem.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
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Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:14 pm |
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It's not (necessarily) that what you saw was an anomaly. It's more like if you took a poll and only talked to hippies, you'd come away with the idea that Americans love Birkenstocks. 😆
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Cyclopath
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:17 pm |
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| Ski wrote: | | so we're back to.........
(a) do nothing
(b) take a deep breath, and stop and consider what we ourselves do, say, write, or post that may be contributing to the problem. |
I bet not many nwhikers are Instagramers, but this forum acts like the Enchantments is the best hike on Earth. People speak about the place with reverence. That's a huge part of why I went. On the other hand, I don't feel like my having seen it was a problem. And I can't justify a belief that it's ok for me to go, but not other folks.
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
My impression of the FS back in the day, it was a great place to go if you wanted a firewood or Christmas tree permit. They were helpful and well informed. If you wanted to go hiking or climbing at an obscure location, not so much. They were primarily there to arrange timber harvests and keep locals happy. The 100 hikes books opened a whole new vista for the great unwashed. Importantly they created a constituency for conservation and even preservation. NWhikers and later social media were an extension of this trend. So it goes.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Sky Hiker
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 1469 | TRs | Pics
Location: outside |
On that note I know some of the USFS personnel and they motioned that they wouldn't send people to remote or off trail locations when asked directions. I applaud that as places like that should only be visited by experienced people and those type usually won't be at the ranger station asking for directions. Next thing you know someone would try to sue them if an injury occurred. 2 Cents
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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| Malachai Constant wrote: | | The 100 hikes books opened a whole new vista for the great unwashed. Importantly they created a constituency for conservation and even preservation. |
Thanks to Louise Marshall who started it though the first 100 Hikes and her Signpost newsletter. 
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:33 am |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | People speak about the place with reverence. That's a huge part of why I went. On the other hand, I don't feel like my having seen it was a problem. And I can't justify a belief that it's ok for me to go, but not other folks. |
+1
I bet if everyone here was honest, none of us has ever said to ourselves "I'm not going to XYZ place because it's too delicate" or whatever. We all deem ourselves worthy and knowledgable. We all think that we are not the problem, it's the other people. Our impact is not too great, it is the impact of others.
BTW, this attitude is called gatekeeping. (Notice how I avoided using the E-word.)
*bigelitistgrins*
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Pahoehoe
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Joined: 12 Oct 2017
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Pahoehoe
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:54 am |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | Cyclopath wrote: | | People speak about the place with reverence. That's a huge part of why I went. On the other hand, I don't feel like my having seen it was a problem. And I can't justify a belief that it's ok for me to go, but not other folks. |
+1
I bet if everyone here was honest, none of us has ever said to ourselves "I'm not going to XYZ place because it's too delicate" or whatever. We all deem ourselves worthy and knowledgable. We all think that we are not the problem, it's the other people. Our impact is not too great, it is the impact of others.
BTW, this attitude is called gatekeeping. (Notice how I avoided using the E-word.)
*bigelitistgrins*
Rumi |
I wont go to the Enchantments again, ever. I have been there several times, and feel like that's enough impact for me. I was actually invited to join a trip this year, and kinda wanted to but I felt it better to let someone else enjoy it.
I dont think it's a bad thing to keep quiet about your favorite places. I wont tell you where I go fishing, either. I might take you, especially if you drive, but I'm not telling you on the internet and anyone I take is told to keep it quiet.
I think what social media takes away is the community involvement/mentor aspect.
Somebody use to have to show you. A real person, not a typing head on the internet. It took maps and research and maybe even failed attempts. Now many (most?) Of the "off trail" places have boot packed trails. It made sense to talk to the old timers. I guess I feel like the time and effort it use to take built respect, not just for the land but also for the community and people.
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joker
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Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
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joker
seeker
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:13 am |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | For that reason I think an even bigger factor in this spike in people visiting backcountry places is simply the huge numbers that are going into the backcountry recreationally. And whenever we go out we are just seeing a small segment of these growing numbers. And if we (here on nwhikers.net) all stop doing TRs and posting lovely photos, those numbers will go someplace else on the internet and get their information, because lovely photos and TRs are all over the internet.
In my mind, trying to control impacts in the backcountry by controlling information on the internet is both futile and counter productive. Instead we should be giving them more information and opportunities. If an area begins to suffer overuse then the land managers will need to apply restrictions. |
Regarding your "spike" comment - there's of course still the question of what has incented the spike, which Seattle Times (based on data from regional population growth and FS and I think NP data) claimed a year or so ago was significantly greater than the area's population growth. But I see this as an interesting side-discussion that's somewhat separate from what's being discussed here - which is *even larger* spikes in use at a relative few specific locations - i.e. places that are seeing practically infinite increases on weekdays (where you were almost always alone in the past, and suddenly after a single photogenic or well written report have several groups on weekdays). The more general "hiking population increase" is of course related but IME does not sufficiently explain the size of some of these locale-specific spikes that I and others have experienced (and yes, LGP is a good example).
The notion of "we (here on nwhikers.net) all stop doing TRs and posting lovely photos" is quite the strawman. I've certainly never suggested this. And the notion of "controlling information on the internet" is also a strawman. And the idea that we should give up the notion of seeking to explore and influence norms of online community discussion in favor of leaving all the issues to land managers is a case of an either/or fallacy. We can of course afford to do both. I mean, what's so controversial about a) discussing the reality that online media is influencing where people go and that this media has some unique "scaling properties" above and beyond prior media sources, and b) that this means that it's a good idea for us to THINK before we post (which is certainly all I'd ever ask or hope for)? Oh - and to suggest this is "gatekeeping" is bordering on Orwellian. Not sharing a photo of a delicate off-trail location on a group that is well north of 130K members does not prevent anyone else from doing what I've done (and letting them do so based on things like researching maps and exploring on the ground will have an inherently dispersing effect versus the concentrating effect my posting the photo with some descriptive text would have). To suggest otherwise seems to imply that I have some duty to share said photo, which I have to assume is not actually what you intend.
Look, online community, as you yourself appear to have noted in that post from which I quoted, is in many ways replacing other forms of "on-ramps" and info sources for getting out hiking and otherwise recreating outdoors. And it's very new. Just as "outing clubs" were once new. No one "controlled" the behavior of outing clubs, but over time, the norms shifted as they began to more fully grasp their impacts and thus their responsibilities. They became more thoughtful about the info they shared with members, and invested in safety and other skills education. The social media space is still (relatively speaking) brand new. I believe that the online communities' managers (admins of FB groups, influential and very active group members) are for the most part just starting to grapple with the impacts and associated responsibilities. I've seen some real change on this front on WH&C since joining it a few years ago (and have invested in gaining credibility as a contributing member such that I think I've been able to have some influence on at least some of the group admins in the past year or so). The norms are slowly shifting, for at least some percent of that group. I believe they'll continue to shift, and people like me can have some influence on that, and can also be influenced by that. That's not "control" - it's simply "social responsibility" as part of membership in a large group that behaves in some ways according to Metcalfe's Law due to the large group size and interconnectedness. And to one of your prior points, these emerging and future norms will transfer well even as online community platforms shift - as I do not expect some of the underlying basics to go away (ability for form arbitrarily large "communities of interest" very rapidly online, and for any member to communicate to a large portion of the group at any time, with rich content including videos and photos, and for this to have influence on the subsequent actions of others) this will be true even if things like "likes" go away forever (not holding my breath given the well-documented dopamine spurts that this feature provides!) and other feature-level details shift.
As I noted above, I'm fine with you disagreeing, and with your thus investing your finite time and energy elsewhere. For my part, I'm excited about the potential of this medium to incent even more people to get outdoors. But as both a techno-optimist as well as a sometimes-realist who has seen the downsides of many exciting technologies as they reach real people through an arc of about thirty years, I want to invest a bounded bit of my own time in both understanding what's happening in these sorts of forums, while also casting forth my own little ripples on these big ponds.
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:24 pm |
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| Quote: | | those numbers will go someplace else on the internet and get their information, because lovely photos and TRs are all over the internet. |
Just because it's 'all over the internet' does not remove *your* moral fingerprints when *you* do it.
The 'somebody else does it too' argument has never been a valid excuse for your own choices. Not when you're 6, 26, or 56.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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BigBrunyon
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 1456 | TRs | Pics
Location: the fitness gyms!! |
I've been actively trying to promote the idea that the Enchantments are the only destination in the cascades that have high lakes and meadows and off trail opportunities! And if you don't win the lottery then you're out of luck. Nother season down the drain. Too bad. I'm doing my part!
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Cyclopath
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:27 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | Just because it's 'all over the internet' does not remove *your* moral fingerprints when *you* do it. |
What's the moral fingerprint of helping fellow hikers?
My mom taught me to share.
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joker
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Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
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joker
seeker
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:46 pm |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | My mom taught me to share. |
My mom taught me to share too. Of course such teachings must not merely be memorized in simplistic form, but must be learned in context. My mom also taught me to save, for instance - including not to just give away *all* my money, but to be generous philanthropically nonetheless. Most of us have learned the wisdom of both "haste makes waste" and "he who hesitates is lost." Context of course matters as to which is "correct."
I still post photos with location labels as well as trip reports. I simply think about whether and when to do so in a more informed way than I used to, based on having seen the impacts of my own as well as others' reports over about two decades now. I also invest more time in patiently sharing basics to help beginners than I used to, including for instance repeatedly answering the same old questions on WH&C, in the belief that we need to help such forums become more fully mature "on-ramps to the outdoors." They are us.
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