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Gil
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 11:05 am 
"Starting in 2020, there is a limit for southbound hikers for the first time. 15 people a day can start the journey at Washington's start point, Hart's Pass." https://kuow.org/stories/limitscoming-to-the-pacific-crest-trail-in-washington

Friends help the miles go easier. Klahini
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kiliki
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 3:00 pm 
I missed that story--thanks for posting. I'm glad to hear it. It doesn't solve everything of course, but it's something. And it raises awareness of just how many people are on this single trail competing for campsites, etc.

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grannyhiker
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 4:25 pm 
PCTA official version And then there are the restrictions in the three wilderness areas in Oregon (Three Sisters, Mt. Washington, Mt. Jefferson, in Willamette and Deschutes National Forests): For those eligible for the PCTA long distance permit (500 mi. +) the main effect is increased restrictions on camping and on getting off the trail: https://www.pcta.org/2019/permit-central-oregon-67771/ No extra fee or booking via recreation.gov will be required. For those section hiking or just day hiking or backpacking, the restrictions are far more severe, require permits bought on recreation.gov, and the spending of $$. No more casual day or weekend hikes in these wildernesses, even in the little used parts of them.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
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Bernardo
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 4:57 pm 
Very sad. Some day the quotaed masses will rise up and say why not open the wildernesses to mining and mountain bikes? We don't have access anyway. How is that the Alps and East Coast survive without quotas. Quotas to enhance solitude? What a joke!

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RumiDude
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 8:23 pm 
The initial purpose of the PCT permits was basically so thru-hikers would only need one permit for the entire trail. A few years back when numbers of hikers exploded, they also needed a way so hikers were not clumped. Thus they began the practice of only 50 per day at the Southern Terminus with the hopes of spreading the NoBo hikers out a bit. They did not have the same limits for SoBo hikers because the numbers were fairly small. But for various reasons more hikers began deciding to go SoBo which resulted in overloading the trail in Washington, especially between Hart's Pass and Monument 78. With the recent years of high and late snow pack in the Sierra Nevada, many thru-hikers chose to flip north and then return later to the Sierra. This kinda screwed with limiting the impact in the Sierra Nevada along the JMT. Thus the change in not allowing people to flip without getting a permit change. All these changes are designed to limit the impact on the PCT by large clumps of hikers. Obviously the changes aren't perfect and they rub some the wrong way. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
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PostFri Oct 11, 2019 9:12 pm 
It kind of rubs me the wrong way. I understand why, though. One thing I like about backpacking in national parks is that as long as you get a permit, you have a guaranteed camp site. That's not the case in most other areas, I know that gives some people anxiety, will they find a spot, what if they can't? A move to help keep spaces available for people who need them is understandable. Now I'm going to feel guilty next time I backpack up there in the spring! 🙁

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Sculpin
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 8:53 am 
Grannyhiker wrote:
For those section hiking or just day hiking or backpacking, the restrictions are far more severe, require permits bought on recreation.gov, and the spending of $$. No more casual day or weekend hikes in these wildernesses, even in the little used parts of them.
Wait...that is not what I am seeing. Here is the pertinent paragraph: "In 2020, 15 long-distance permits will be available each day for southbound thru- and section-hikers and riders starting in the PCT Northern Terminus area (Canada through Stehekin). These permits will be available for trips starting between June 15 and July 31. After that, 15 long-distance permits starting in the Northern Terminus area will be available each day for section hikers and riders starting between Aug. 1 and Sept. 15." They are specifically calling them "long distance permits." There is no mention about how many days constitutes a "long distance" hike, did you see something? Otherwise, I am reading this to mean that there is no effect on shorter backpacks and day hikes. And I certainly don't see anything relating to hiking in the "little used parts" of the wildernesses.

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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Randito
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 9:17 am 
Bernardo wrote:
How is that the Alps and East Coast survive without quotas.
Where did you get that idea? Huts in the alps have reservations and tent camping is either discouraged or outright illegal.

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josh_pnw
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 10:19 am 
As someone who has never paid attention to permits for the PCT (no interest in thru-hiking it), I'm confused. So you're supposed to have a "Long Distance Permit" from the PCTA if you're hiking >500 miles on the PCT regardless of the permit policy of the respective management agency? For <500 mile trips the PCTA says to pick up permits as you pass the trailhead unless there are quotas/other requirements for particular areas. What's stopping someone from adopting this approach for the entire trip?

Ad Alta!!
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Slugman
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 10:56 am 
Grannyhiker accurately describes the Bend area permit changes. I have no idea why another poster chooses to quote the wrong section, one that doesn't apply, and ignore the parts that completely confirm what she wrote. Here is one of the actual pertinent paragraphs: " Overnight users will be subject to quotas at all wilderness trailheads in this area. These quotas allow anywhere between 3 to 16 overnight groups, in addition to day users". (These overnight users are separate from the long distance hikers, who have different rules). As to the "even in little used parts of the area" there is this: "for overnight use, all 79 trailheads throughout these three wilderness areas." Most of these 79 trailheads do not access the PCT or other overused areas. The comment from the PCTA person at the end is especially galling. She says they worked with the FS to make the permits as simple as possible, allowing as much freedom as possible...". But when I read the numerous paragraphs outlining the ultra complicated mish mash of restrictions, some of them seemingly ridiculous, I see the exact opposite of what the author wrote. Below is a sample of "simple freedom": Day-users will be subject to quotas at roughly 12 out of 20 of the trailheads commonly used to access the PCT directly or via feeder trails. These quotas typically allow anywhere between 24 to 60 day users at various popular PCT access points. Day users are counted separately from overnight users. Overnight users will be subject to quotas at all wilderness trailheads in this area. These quotas allow anywhere between 3 to 16 overnight groups, in addition to day users. Holders of the interagency PCT long-distance permit (500 miles or more) are exempt from needing to obtain an additional permit. However, there are restrictions on where camping is allowed. These travelers will not be allowed to camp outside the PCT corridor (1/2 mile on either side of PCT) Nor can they camp in the following areas: Obsidian, North and South Matthieu lakes, Coyote and Shale lakes, and Jefferson Park. These restricted areas generally affect a mile or two of the PCT at a time, with adequate non-restricted areas for camping in between. Multi-day or multi-week PCT travelers (less than 500 miles) can traverse all three wilderness areas after obtaining a standard overnight permit from any of the limited-entry trailheads. Flexibility regarding starting date or entry point may be needed in order to get a permit. These travelers will need to adhere to the entry date and trailhead listed on their permit, or obtain a new permit if their schedule changes. These travelers are not subject to the same camping area restrictions as holders of the PCT long-distance permit. Traveling between wildernesses is only allowed at PCT trailheads; in other words, if one leaves the trail to resupply in town, one may only re-enter the wilderness at a PCT trailhead (and not a sidetrail trailhead). So simple, so much freedom! Yeah, right. And the above load of restrictions is only for the PCT hikers, there are other quotas and permits and fees outside the PCT areas that are mentioned in a separate section.

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Pahoehoe
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 4:52 pm 
Bernardo wrote:
Very sad. Some day the quotaed masses will rise up and say why not open the wildernesses to mining and mountain bikes? We don't have access anyway. How is that the Alps and East Coast survive without quotas. Quotas to enhance solitude? What a joke!
What do you suggest they do?

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Malachai Constant
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 5:28 pm 
Just glad we did the Bend to Hood section before all this nonsense occurred.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Brucester
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PostSat Oct 12, 2019 5:35 pm 
I'm glad I did the AT 20+ years ago. Room in shelters the whole trail every night! No drama or parties. The PCT.... 15 hikers a day, 7 days a week? That's a lot!

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RumiDude
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PostSun Oct 13, 2019 12:54 pm 
The bottom line is that the main differences for the thru-hiker is the limit on SoBo hikers starts at/near the US/Can border to 15 per day. The other change is that NoBo thru-hikers cannot flip without getting a new permit. I imagine the most significant change there is the part about flipping pretty much voids the permit. My guess is that the SoBo hikers just approximated their start in previous years because there were not any restrictions on numbers. Thus they simply used an early date they thought they could possibly use. Now they will need to plan more carefully when selecting a start date. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Bernardo
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Bernardo
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PostSun Oct 13, 2019 7:48 pm 
If additional infrastructure is needed to accommodate additional traffic, then build it. In Europe they have staffed huts that can accomadate many people; along the AT there are simple lean-to shelters that can accommodate about 12 people inside with more at additional dispersed campsites. We live on a crowded planet. Summer is short. We need to adapt to that reality. I'm surprised how few visit the wilderness and how many prefer the mall. That said, when you live near millions of people, you cannot expect to have entire mountain ranges to yourself. Just one man's view.

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