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Brian R
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Brian R
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 Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:49 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | Bernardo wrote: | | Very sad. Some day the quotaed masses will rise up and say why not open the wildernesses to mining and mountain bikes? We don't have access anyway. How is that the Alps and East Coast survive without quotas. Quotas to enhance solitude? What a joke! |
What do you suggest they do? |
Why do anything? Solitude is where you find it. If it's imposed, it's not real, or truly earned; rather, it's been purchased. No different than a hotel room.
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RumiDude
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:03 pm |
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| Bernardo wrote: | | If additional infrastructure is needed to accommodate additional traffic, then build it. |
Not to sound too negative, but there is not enough funding to take care of what infrastructure we already have.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:23 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | What do you suggest they do? |
Bomb the Instagram server farm! Then no one will know what a trail is anymore except nwhikers. We'll all be able to do the Enchantments on a sunny weekend and not see another soul.
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:48 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | Bernardo wrote: | | Very sad. Some day the quotaed masses will rise up and say why not open the wildernesses to mining and mountain bikes? We don't have access anyway. How is that the Alps and East Coast survive without quotas. Quotas to enhance solitude? What a joke! |
What do you suggest they do? |
Why do anything? Solitude is where you find it. If it's imposed, it's not real, or truly earned; rather, it's been purchased. No different than a hotel room. |
Where are you getting solitude as the sole reason for limiting the daily starts?
The article cites a day where 160 had permits, and there not being enough campsites. There also has to be campspots for regular backpackers...
There are lots of people, now.
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:15 pm |
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| Pahoehoe wrote: | | Brian R wrote: | | Pahoehoe wrote: | | Bernardo wrote: | | Very sad. Some day the quotaed masses will rise up and say why not open the wildernesses to mining and mountain bikes? We don't have access anyway. How is that the Alps and East Coast survive without quotas. Quotas to enhance solitude? What a joke! |
What do you suggest they do? |
Why do anything? Solitude is where you find it. If it's imposed, it's not real, or truly earned; rather, it's been purchased. No different than a hotel room. |
Where are you getting solitude as the sole reason for limiting the daily starts?
The article cites a day where 160 had permits, and there not being enough campsites. There also has to be campspots for regular backpackers...
There are lots of people, now. |
I didn't see anything in the article that quantified, or even described in basic terms physical damage to the PCT landscape--aside from this: "there's crowding and there's visible human impacts to the trail and to water sources and to surrounding landscapes." Specifics might be in order here. Or a formal EA/EIS process at the very least.
No, this is yet another chapter in the playbook about turning federal lands into a pay-to-play theme park. Aldo Leopold would roll over in his grave.
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Gil
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Gil
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Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:24 am |
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Having 160 people show up at the same campsite doesn't sound like a great wilderness experience. Can only imagine the damage.
Friends help the miles go easier.
Klahini
Friends help the miles go easier.
Klahini
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Sculpin
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Sculpin
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Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:10 am |
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| Slugman wrote: | | Grannyhiker accurately describes the Bend area permit changes. I have no idea why another poster chooses to quote the wrong section, one that doesn't apply, and ignore the parts that completely confirm what she wrote. |
Or maybe the other poster was confused by grannyhiker's post and thought that she meant that dayhiking and overnight hiking would be affected everywhere. Now I see that the last paragraph was only meant to pertain to the Central Oregon Cascades.
I basically never see rangers in areas that don't have quotas. Won't they have to hire a lot more rangers?
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:02 am |
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| Gil wrote: | | Having 160 people show up at the same campsite doesn't sound like a great wilderness experience. Can only imagine the damage. |
You'll have to continue imagining it, because I've seen no data to support the contention. Not even photographs. In fact, I didn't read that 160 hikers showed up at the same campsite at all--only that they started hiking same-day. (Not even sure this is true.) Privies, or, in some cases, shelters might be in order--and these are far cheaper than bureaucrat/fee-enforcement salaries. In the final analysis, the complaint here seems to be about "solitude." Again.
So, again, solitude is where you find it.
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RumiDude
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:50 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | | In the final analysis, the complaint here seems to be about "solitude." Again. |
It is not just about solitude.
Here is the statement on the PCTA wbste on the 2020 changes to the SoBo permits:
"Southbound thru-hikes are becoming more popular. By spreading out southbounders starting at or near the PCT Northern Terminus, the goal is to disperse people more evenly in this fragile area throughout the short hiking and riding season.
Permit numbers for 2019 show why this is necessary. On July 1, 2019, over 160 people were permitted for trips at the Northern Terminus, while June 29 had only 13 people. Having 160 people traveling through fragile alpine areas at the same time means our collective impact on the landscape is greater. Where will all these people camp without degrading the landscape? How will the people’s trail experience be affected when there are over 100 other people camping and traveling in the same area?
These potential impacts can be reduced. If we work together to spread our footprint, we can sustain the trail experience for the generations to come.
In 2020, 15 long-distance permits will be available each day for southbound thru- and section-hikers and riders starting in the PCT Northern Terminus area (Canada through Stehekin). These permits will be available for trips starting between June 15 and July 31. After that, 15 long-distance permits starting in the Northern Terminus area will be available each day for section hikers and riders starting between Aug. 1 and Sept. 15." (I bolded the pertainate parts.)
So it is the impacts on the areas affected and the trail experience which are the primary reasons for the changes.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:09 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | | I didn't see anything in the article that quantified, or even described in basic terms physical damage to the PCT landscape--aside from this: "there's crowding and there's visible human impacts to the trail and to water sources and to surrounding landscapes." Specifics might be in order here. Or a formal EA/EIS process at the very least.
No, this is yet another chapter in the playbook about turning federal lands into a pay-to-play theme park. Aldo Leopold would roll over in his grave. |
Where does the pay come in from this chapter?
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:28 pm |
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Do you really think these permits will be free? USFS strategy has been to create false scarcity, hire a vendor, raise prices. Then pretend it's all about the "free market." Mount St. Helens comes to mind.
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:39 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | It is not just about solitude.
Here is the statement on the PCTA wbste on the 2020 changes to the SoBo permits:
"Southbound thru-hikes are becoming more popular. By spreading out southbounders starting at or near the PCT Northern Terminus, the goal is to disperse people more evenly in this fragile area throughout the short hiking and riding season.
Permit numbers for 2019 show why this is necessary. On July 1, 2019, over 160 people were permitted for trips at the Northern Terminus, while June 29 had only 13 people. Having 160 people traveling through fragile alpine areas at the same time means our collective impact on the landscape is greater. Where will all these people camp without degrading the landscape? How will the people’s trail experience be affected when there are over 100 other people camping and traveling in the same area?
These potential impacts can be reduced. If we work together to spread our footprint, we can sustain the trail experience for the generations to come.
In 2020, 15 long-distance permits will be available each day for southbound thru- and section-hikers and riders starting in the PCT Northern Terminus area (Canada through Stehekin). These permits will be available for trips starting between June 15 and July 31. After that, 15 long-distance permits starting in the Northern Terminus area will be available each day for section hikers and riders starting between Aug. 1 and Sept. 15." (I bolded the pertainate parts.)
So it is the impacts on the areas affected and the trail experience which are the primary reasons for the changes.
Rumi |
Sorry Rumi, but again, nothing in the piece constitutes evidence of physical impact, impending or otherwise. The "trail experience" you describe is subjective. If a Hart's Pass rally start isn't your thing, there are plenty of other trailheads to be had. The social/solitude aspects of hiking are inherently self-regulating.
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Bernardo
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Bernardo
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:10 am |
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The degradation of freedom is far greater than the degradation of the trail. That's a subjective statement either way you look at it, but I agree it's a fake and morally questionable experience if it's only possible by excluding others.
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Pahoehoe
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Pahoehoe
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:02 am |
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How do you feel about concerts that sell out and restaurants that take reservations?
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Randito
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Randito
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:14 am |
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I view this quota on starts akin to staging marathon starts by expected pace.
If trends continue without a limit on starts on a particular day, we might see a hundred through hikers trying to depart Harts pass on a single day.
Sure over the next week they will be spread out a bit, but with a heavy wave like that we would see many new tent sites established along the trail south Harts Pass for a hundred miles or so. Tent sites that would only be needed a few days a year. By requesting that hikers stage their departures, the need for additional tent sites will be reduced and hikers will experience less of "walking in a horde" feeling.
It will be interesting to see what the NPS / USFS does to enforce this quota.
This year was likely a bit of an outlier for SB starts as the Sierra spring snowpack was exceptionally deep and a significant number of hikers switched direction.
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