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Cyclopath
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 10:56 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
I need to find a link that will predict when the snow is cleared, but the road only open for bikes because the snow is not cleared. 

It's kind of similar to the North Cascades riding, I think.

I'd like to do that too, but a friend says my pickup will be broken into and destroyed.

I've done a bunch of riding all over the North Cascades without ever have that kind of problem.  Maybe I've just jinxed myself though.  Park across the street from the Mazama Store to ride it west.  Outside the Colonial Creek CG to go east.  At the boat launch to ride up to the Cascade Pass TH.  Never a problem, always fun.  People aren't going to break in to a car when there are a lot of other people (witnesses) coming and going.

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JPH
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Do you know if there's a short window before the road opening when you can ride all the way over to Mazama and it's still closed to cars?
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treeswarper
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 12:55 pm 
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A hellion on an ebike.  Note all the damage being caused and the .... unleashed dog!  This was a day when the wind they warned about hit and I 'bout got blown over a few times on the way back.

There also was a lot more traffic than usual on this road.  I counted 6 cars that went by.  Usually we encounter a couple.


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Cyclopath
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 1:04 pm 
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JPH wrote:
Do you know if there's a short window before the road opening when you can ride all the way over to Mazama and it's still closed to cars?

This is when the scenery is best, too.

There's also a short window when the roads to Chinook Pass and Sunrise are open to bikes and not yet to cars, too.  Chinook was a great ride, Sunrise is pretty at the top but too forested most of the way.
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kiliki
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 3:29 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Any nay sayers tried one out yet?  THAT is the problem.

On the face of it, a lot of your arguments seem reasonable enough.

But the problem is actually that Interior pushed the new rules through without allowing for public comment, a possible violation of federal law, and that they did so at the behest of the companies that want to profit from e-bikes. And when you are talking about an agency (Interior) that just reorganized itself in order to streamline oil and gas development; when they are sending studies back to the NPS staff and telling them to scrub any references to climate change; when there are controversial profit making schemes in NPs afloat and when Interior appears to be treating parks as profit centers for private companies; when there have been rule changes explicitly meant to reduce public lands staff; essentially, when the agency has shown that it is not a good steward of our public lands, then a lot of people are not going to buy the "what's the big deal" argument.

I don't think it's unreasonable that people support ebikes on park roads, but start a public process and see what Americans think before changing the policy--this is the way things are done in NPs. Let people bring up their worries about safety and enforcement when people violate the rules, and force the NPS to address how they'd deal with that.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm 
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My gosh!  Who would ever want to make a profit!  No, I'm sure the many ebike makers are giving the bikes away because who needs money?  Can you show which ebike companies pushed for this?  I tend to think it was ebike users as there were a lot of complaints about not being able to ride on bike trails, and there still are from owners of the bikes.  The bikes are selling, there are so many to choose from and new companies starting up.  Could it just be that a hell of a lot of people want to ride ebikes in parks and have made their wishes known?  Enough complaints that somebody actually listened?

Kiliki, you are blowing this WAY' out of proportion.  Parks are realizing that more and more people are using ebikes and they want to ride them in the parks.  We have too many conspiracy theories going around as it is.  Here is the Park Service statement on ebikes.  I see no mention of mineral leases.

Ebikes in parks


Try an ebike.  They are happy inventions.  You sound like you need it.

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mb
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 6:57 pm 
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The current administration, including interior, is very 'business' focused, with the key being 'and who cares who we hurt along the way, that's winning!'. And 'who cares about established change management policy, be it custom or written procedure'. This means some good changes will go through more quickly... and some terrible ones.

This link is a good read:
https://goodheartsolutions.com/2019/10/18/emtb-thoughts/

I may be repeating myself here, but I have ridden rental e-bikes a little bit. My own opinion is that low-torque pedal-assist-only ebikes are very close to bicycles in terms of user behavior and trail impact. Hi-torque has much more trail impact (lets you spin a wheel). Hi-speed has big social impact (for obvious reasons). And throttle-assist has social impact too for subtle reasons: my unproven theory is that it changes the unconscious perception of the rider from 'fully in control' to 'hang on and guide'. Which is fun, and also what you get downhill on a normal bike (or skis or a raft), but changes subtle behavior.

In all cases a rider can be responsible, the power just amplifies the irresponsible people.

Your 'getitng started' is an interesting question; in a low torque situation one of the pushbutton 'bump start' throttles is probably similar enough a motor skills perspective to be pedal-controlled. Is that what you mean?
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RumiDude
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 9:50 pm 
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OK, I have been in and out of this thread so I am not sure if this has been posted or discussed. It is about a lawsuit against the forest service brought by equestrians and other groups. It concerns the FS allowing Class 1 e-bikes on certain trails around Tahoe.

Here it is: Equestrians Sue Forest Service over E-MTB Access

Rumi

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Riverside Laker
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 10:10 pm 
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JPH wrote:
Do you know if there's a short window before the road opening when you can ride all the way over to Mazama and it's still closed to cars?

I've ridden it several times in July or August on weekdays. Traffic is pretty light. If you go while the gate is still closed, is the road wet from melting snow?

Other fun climbs on weekdays include the Mt Rainier area (Sunrise is really good, light traffic on weekdays), Artist Point, Hurricane Ridge. Haven't tried Mt St Helens yet.

By the way, I just got back from a fun trip with a bunch of great cycling climbs. Rides included Mt Figueroa, the fantastic Gilbraltar Road near Santa Barbara, Furnace Creek to Dante's View, Lee Vining via Tioga Pass to Olmstead Point, a great climb near Markleeville CA, and Mt Lassen. Also the Avenue of the Giants, a much flatter road in the Redwoods. What a great way to enjoy sunshine in November.
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Brian R
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 10:25 pm 
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kiliki wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable that people support ebikes on park roads, but start a public process and see what Americans think before changing the policy--this is the way things are done in NPs. Let people bring up their worries about safety and enforcement when people violate the rules, and force the NPS to address how they'd deal with that.

This is how an unelected bureaucracy stacks the deck against user-citizens time after time after time. There is absolutely NO need for an EA/EIS/NEPA process that "allows" e-bikes to travel existing bicycle corridors and decommissioned roads.

Interior answers to the Executive branch and rules are changed w/o public input all the time. Antiquities Act, anyone?  Don't like it? Elect a new executive. Put another way, urban greens have no problem when the so-called process (or lack thereof) favors their position, hysterics when it does not. A one-sided system, run by elites.
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RandyHiker
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PostThu Nov 14, 2019 10:58 pm 
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JPH wrote:
Do you know if there's a short window before the road opening when you can ride all the way over to Mazama and it's still closed to cars?

The McKenzie pass in Oregon has an organized bike only period in the spring.

https://traveloregon.com/things-to-do/trip-ideas/mckenzie-pass-even-better-without-cars/

HWY-20 over Rainey and Washington passes is relatively friendly route to ride even when open to motor vehicles.  The shoulders are pretty wide for the most part.  Some of the sections around Marblemount have narrow shoulders, but if you go east to west this less of an issue.
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treeswarper
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PostFri Nov 15, 2019 4:31 pm 
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I mean I pedal through a heavily used intersection.  I use the throttle to gain speed which is faster than just pedaling, and safer for me.  I can get going quicker than the cars and make it safely to the other side.  My throttle is a twisting one like on motorcycles.  And, most of us do not try to spin the tires because that causes wear to the tires.  Again...common sense and safety.  There are no bike lanes or paths in my part of the state.  None for forty miles. 

Now, EAs are mainly needed when ground disturbing activities occur.  Please enlighten me as to the ground disturbing done on a paved trail in a park?   

And how did the Northwest Forest Plan happen?  Remember that? 

What else?   Oh, those wilderness areas.

And the very parks you are thinking of happened by executive orders, I think.  Stay tuned for more of this as I suspect the Pasayten will be assimilated and ruined soon.  Not by bikes, but by the rules that the Park Service puts in place. 

Oh, does REI profit from having wilderness areas and parks nearby?  Do they ever lobby?   Ooooh, and they sell ebikes also.

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RandyHiker
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PostFri Nov 15, 2019 4:39 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
I suspect the Pasayten will be assimilated and ruined soon.  Not by bikes, but by the rules that the Park Service puts in place. 

??  The Pasayten wilderness is administered by the Forest Service not the Park Service.

What sort of rule shenanigans are you thinking of ?
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Cyclopath
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PostFri Nov 15, 2019 10:36 pm 
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Riverside Laker wrote:
I've ridden it several times in July or August on weekdays. Traffic is pretty light. If you go while the gate is still closed, is the road wet from melting snow?

Other fun climbs on weekdays include the Mt Rainier area (Sunrise is really good, light traffic on weekdays), Artist Point, Hurricane Ridge. Haven't tried Mt St Helens yet.

By the way, I just got back from a fun trip with a bunch of great cycling climbs. Rides included Mt Figueroa, the fantastic Gilbraltar Road near Santa Barbara, Furnace Creek to Dante's View, Lee Vining via Tioga Pass to Olmstead Point, a great climb near Markleeville CA, and Mt Lassen. Also the Avenue of the Giants, a much flatter road in the Redwoods. What a great way to enjoy sunshine in November.

up.gif

Hurricane Ridge and Lee Vining to Tioga Pass have been on my list for years.
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MtnGoat
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PostSat Nov 16, 2019 8:00 am 
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Brian R wrote:
This is how an unelected bureaucracy stacks the deck against user-citizens time after time after time. There is absolutely NO need for an EA/EIS/NEPA process that "allows" e-bikes to travel existing bicycle corridors and decommissioned roads.

Interior answers to the Executive branch and rules are changed w/o public input all the time. Antiquities Act, anyone?  Don't like it? Elect a new executive. Put another way, urban greens have no problem when the so-called process (or lack thereof) favors their position, hysterics when it does not. A one-sided system, run by elites.

up.gif  up.gif

IMO regulations concerning restrictions upon users and the public should probably have to pass legislative muster rather than mere institutional edict, and this should cover all govt actions in this sphere of governance. The Designers did not anticipate the sustained explosive growth of laws sidestepping the democratic/legislative process and the inherent check and balance present there.

The objections I've been reading to ebike use, when ebikes sidestep most if not not all of the usual objections to powered riding (noise/exhaust etc etc) seem to constantly imply something else at work more akin to a desire to exclude users who merely wish to enjoy their form of quiet recreation.

I view this as similar to the complaints about having the 4x4 road to the summit of Mt Defiance in the gorge open to 4x4s. Folks who wish to do the nearly 5k' gain on foot have the option to do so, and there's no way you'll hear anything from said 4x4's until the last 1/4 mile, if that. Not liking that you can choose to do the work, or not, IMO is not a valid reason to exclude the non hikers.

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