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treeswarper
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 8:37 pm 
Brian R wrote:
And no, I don;t believe a helicopter should be used to move fisheries, or staff of any kind (except for rescues/emergencies) around national parks. Rules should be equally applied. Let them use horses.
Horses sometimes cause on the job injuries. One excursion on the Okanogan in the 1990s had a hand slammed in a horse trailer door, one rider stung by bees and thrown, plus some other injuries that I cannot recall. The trip ended early. The pickup pulling the horse trailer had problems on the way back. If something could go wrong, it did on that trip. I'm not sure how stock is purchased, but the horses can be a bit ornery and also can sense when inexperienced people are on them. Horses and inexperienced riders. What could possibly go wrong? Perhaps they should ride ebikes instead.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 8:48 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Horses sometimes cause on the job injuries. One excursion on the Okanogan in the 1990s had a hand slammed in a horse trailer door, one rider stung by bees and thrown, plus some other injuries that I cannot recall. The trip ended early. The pickup pulling the horse trailer had problems on the way back. If something could go wrong, it did on that trip.
Sounds just awful. rolleyes.gif But not as bad as an SUV/ATV rollover--or gyro crash. Still, if horses are too much for a bureaucrat or college intern to handle, then let them hike--like the rest of us. Or, in the case of Westside Road, walk, pedal power, ebike--or let the rest of us drive it like they do.

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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 9:26 pm 
Well... the issues of horses and helicopters goes far beyond the scope of this discussion, but let me submit that there are valid reasons for the use of the helicopters for the fisheries people - it's simply too damn difficult to walk in any reasonable amount of time, and the idea of using pack stock up there simply isn't a viable option. As to driving up to Klapatche Point: I used to go up there quite frequently after work, just to watch the sun go down, and I remember the drive quite clearly. Due to the washout at Tahoma Creek, they've determined that the road isn't repairable and is better left as a hiker/mountain bike area than allowing automobiles all the way up there. One could argue endlessly about whether or not automobiles should be allowed up there again, or whether or not the road should be repaired to meet the standards required for such use, but at this point in time it's most likely a moot argument - the odds of either happening are probably about the same as would be for reopening the Carbon River Road to vehicular traffic: none.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Brian R
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 10:14 pm 
Carbon is a different story. Aggradation has piled gravel bars almost 40 feet higher than the road in places. The entire grade is doomed by the shifting river. The question is this: as this happens, will wilderness boundaries be redrawn to allow continued use of bicycles to Ipsut Campground? On the other hand, Westside is still 95% same shape it was when it was closed back in the 80s. The portable bridge at Dry Creek could be easily upgraded. In fact, MRNP has done a LOT of work on the grade along Tahoma Creek, pounding pilings into the abutment and staging tons of rip-rap and culvert along the grade near the old campground. The optics of rangers and NPS staff driving up that road in SUVs and pickups past hikers and bikers every day is just awful. That said, ebikes do offer a way for less fit to continue enjoying the "lost world" feel along Westside Road.

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Randito
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 10:17 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Mas and speed between climbers and winch climbers is the same, too.
Why bother with a winch, electric helicopters are coming soon.

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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 12:16 am 
Sweet! I'll hover that sh## right over your ebike. Its quiet and has no exhaust. I promise not to hit you.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 pm 
You really dislike the idea of sharing a trail with someone with someone whose only empirical difference from you is they have a quiet motor on their bike, don't you. Can you describe the emotions which disturb your ride if they are there? How does their mere presence upset you? You said something earlier about muscle power being better, I'd be interested in an argument explaining how the presence of an e bike takes away from your accomplishments. Basically, the opposition to ebikes makes no sense whatsoever to me. I guess this has been obvious. To me, what I see is a fellow who wants to pedal his bike himself arguing to keep people who aren't peddling off the trails he doesn't want to share with them... when the only differences don't even impact his experience in any measurable way.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 6:54 am 
Egos.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:19 am 
It's about evaluating them separately because they have motors. They shrink the "wilderness". They DO go much faster uphill than a pedal bike and create a safety issue. They have motors. Lazy people who want rewards handed to them without work are trying to get them snuck in as regular bikes. They have motors. They need to be their own user group.

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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:39 am 
They don't shrink the wilderness. Those boundaries are set in stone. If you are riding in wilderness, you are breaking the law. It's really none of your business on the style of bike I choose to pedal, is it? Now you are calling ebike users "lazy". That's your problem. Is it lazy to add lower gears to your mtn bike so it is easier to pedal? Shouldn't that be monitored also? It's mechanical and if you truly consider what you ride in to be wilderness, you should only be walking then. How much work do the work police require? You really need to ride an ebike up a steep grade. One without a throttle. You'll soon find out there is work required. Nope, it's an ego problem and you've demonstrated that big time.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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neek
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:51 am 
treeswarper wrote:
They don't shrink the wilderness. Those boundaries are set in stone. If you are riding in wilderness, you are breaking the law.
Notice "wilderness" was in quotes, thus presumably not referring to designated federal wilderness areas. If you guys are going to argue you have to at least agree on the rules of language.

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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:17 am 
The speed of any bike depends on the rider. I imagine there are a lot of acoustic bikers who could beat me on my pedal assist going uphill. Just because it gives a boost to pedaling does not make it "easy". But one has to research and realize the differences between brands, not confuse ebikes with motorcycles, and maybe even ride a few to know this. Hell, maybe only single speed bikes or better yet, unicycles should only be allowed on bike trails. I take it that unicycles cannot coast downhill so it would be more of a "pure" experience and really weed out the dreaded lazy people. As for the use of the word wilderness? It gets used so badly that folks don't understand why you can drive in one wilderness, but not the other. The term should not be used for areas where mechanical devices can be ridden.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 11:02 am 
This came out today. This guy is in super shape so I'd probably be in a higher assist.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 11:46 am 
Riverside Laker wrote:
I wonder if the same arguments were made in pubs when power steering and power windows became ubiquitous.
Probably by some, just like some ebike proponents point at di2 and say "but that has a battery". But neither power steering, power windows, or di2 provide power for mobility, which is where the line between motorized and nonmotorized should be clearly demarcarted.

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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 12:58 pm 
William Lewis Manly made a similar argument in the 1890s, saying people who took the train across the country had it easy. He crossed with emigrants in 1849-50. He probably would think airplanes would be cheating, although he probably couldn't imagine the TSA lines.

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