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Damian
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PostThu Nov 28, 2019 9:42 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
may just lead to ... more coming here for the free stuff and lax civility laws

With all respect, there is simply no evidence of this.  The path to homelessness usually begins with some form of trauma.  Abandonment, rape, abuse, sickness, accidents, divorce, and others.  Adiction is often a factor, as is mental illness. And yep, throw in bad choices.

I have met hundreds of folks living on the frontlines of homelessnes in tents and under tarps, and on the streets.  To my knowledge, not one of them came here for the free stuff or lax laws.  Most have been here a while.  When the bottom falls out, most do not have the facilities or resources to migrate to a place with more free stuff.  Most either grew up here or came here for the same reasons most of the rest of us did.  Family situations, marriage, jobs, and then became homeless.  I'm sure there are exceptions.  Seattle is Dying actually got a few things wrong.
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contour5
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PostThu Nov 28, 2019 11:51 pm 
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plus money to provide five mobile bathrooms that include a needle exchange and a place to get rid of pet waste.

I'd really prefer a public toilet that isn't a needle exchange or a place to get rid of pet waste. We need all of these things, but they don't really go together, unless the mobile bathrooms are exclusively for the use of junkie dog owners to shoot up in? Are they mobile in order to provide the junkies with exercise? Or to lure them out to a quiet place in the desert?

Honestly, I don't know. Public toilets have become rare to non-existent for people without money.
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DigitalJanitor
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PostFri Nov 29, 2019 10:38 am 
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Anne Elk
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Damian wrote:
Anne Elk wrote:
may just lead to ... more coming here for the free stuff and lax civility laws

With all respect, there is simply no evidence of this.

From our past PM conversations, I know where you're coming from with this. I won't dispute what you said re "trauma"; (I've read several of Gabor Mate's books on the homeless addicts he works with).  But I've seen/read a number of news interviews with various homeless who readily admitted they were from elsewhere and are staying here b/c of the lax drug enforcement & free stuff. My guess is 15-20% are from elsewhere, but I don't think we can be certain: dishonesty is a huge component of addictive behavior.

But what irks me (at the risk of veering too close to politics) is that the real problem is so much larger, yet the local politicians seem to believe that one municipality (even one doing as well as ours) can tax its residents enough to solve the problem. Not remotely possible. The most pervasive underlying cause is 30-40 years of wage stagnation and loss of decent family-wage jobs.  To say we have near to "full employment" doesn't reflect the reality of so many people forced to work multiple jobs with sub-par wages.  I've read that we haven't seen this much wealth disparity since the 1920's...and earlier. This article is illustrative: Full-time minimum wage earners cannot afford a 2-bedroom rental anywhere in the US

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UGH
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PostSat Nov 30, 2019 8:27 pm 
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I have a better solution.   I got the idea as a kid listening to Lyndon Johnson, who declared during the Vietnam War that the U.S. was going to "bum 'em."  Then our fighter jets dropped "bums" on North Vietnam.

So the solution is:  we gather all the bums in Seattle (then Portland, then Los Angeles) and parachute them over North Korea.   We bum 'em big time.   It will drive Kim Jong Un plum out of his looney mind, and save Seattle a lot of money.

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DigitalJanitor
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PostSun Dec 01, 2019 8:03 pm 
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Years ago the Simpsons suggested turning homeless people into mailboxes.
JMO: a conservative argument can be made for avoiding conditions that lead to peasant revolts. Even if folks don't really care about the humans involved, they should be at least a little aware that there are risks in staying on this trajectory.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 6:10 am 
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When I was a minimum wage earner, I didn't even think of renting a two bedroom apt or house! I had a small one room apt. or else shared a house with roommates.  That added incentive to get education or training to get a better job.  However, at that time tuition was lower and one could at least afford community college while making minimum wage.  I guess that isn't possible now. 

Our area has built quite a few "houses" that are like dorms for people who work in the orchards.  I think they are charged $3 a night.  They are located on the bus route and there is a grocery store next door.    If our area, which is pretty much low income can do that for working people, it seems like it could be done in the more affluent areas.

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Schenk
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 10:04 am 
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Damian wrote:
Anne Elk wrote:
may just lead to ... more coming here for the free stuff and lax civility laws


Damian wrote:
With all respect, there is simply no evidence of this.  The path to homelessness usually begins with some form of trauma. 

2 different points altogether.
You may be correct on why people become homeless, but that usually has little to do with where the homeless end up.
Especially the addicted homeless.  There is a large contingent of "nomadic" homeless who will go where life is easiest.

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Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
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the1mitch
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 6:30 pm 
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I have some anecdotal evidence to submit. My son was an ER nurse for multiple years before he changed careers. He dealt with "frequent fliers" from multiple municipalities who found their way into his lobby, some of them over 70 times. Bellevue routinely would ship their habitual homeless to other city's ERs. Many times staff would confront those police officers and try to shame them for what they were doing. Their answer was to drive back to Bellevue.... Go to a grocery store after 11 pm and watch the shoplifting follies. We are ignoring a mental health crisis and even worse we are giving a free pass to criminal behavior.  We will reap a whirlwind of scofflaw actions as we decriminalize more and more deviant behaviors. I ask you, where will this end? How will we explain to our grandkids? Call me names after you volunteer in a mission or shelter.

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Anne Elk
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 pm 
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Digital Janitor wrote:
a conservative argument can be made for avoiding conditions that lead to peasant revolts. Even if folks don't really care about the humans involved, they should be at least a little aware that there are risks in staying on this trajectory.

I think one of the last American politicians who really understood this and took appropriate action was Franklin Roosevelt.  As Bill Maher pointed out in a monologue on middle class economics (that I can't link to w/o a serious breach of our posting rules), a middle class is not the normal byproduct of capitalism, and the thriving middle class that America used to have didn't just appear out of the blue; it was created using certain economic tools.
treeswarper wrote:
When I was a minimum wage earner, I didn't even think of renting a two bedroom apt or house!

Back in the good old days, minimum wage earners were mostly young kids or unskilled workers who could move up eventually, either thru education or decent manufacturing jobs. These days, more and more "adults" are being forced into minimum wage jobs because that's all they can find.

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Ski
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PostMon Dec 02, 2019 9:41 pm 
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the1mitch wrote:
Go to a grocery store after 11 pm and watch the shoplifting follies.

What makes you think you have to wait until after 11 pm?
Shoplifters work around the clock. All day. Every day.
When the low-lifes know that the employees of Safeway, Albertsons, or (insert name of favorite supermarket here) have strict instructions to not confront or try to stop shoplifters as they're wheeling carts full of prime rib and filet mignon out the front door in broad daylight, what do you suppose the result will be?
A staff member up at the Safeway near me told me the loss rate at that location was about $550K every 6 months.

What happens is.... we pay for it in increased prices.

(ACE Hardware next door to Safeway: I can't provide numbers, but a close personal acquaintance who works the closing shift there tells me they nightly pick up at least two or three dozen empty packages cruising up and down the aisles every night. That of course doesn't include the stuff that went out the door still in the package.)

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 6:55 am 
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It is because of shoplifters that we have to deal with that awful amount of plastic holding a small item.  I hate shoplifters with a passion.  Think of what they've done to the environment because of all that packaging done to try to foil their stealing.

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catsp
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 8:11 am 
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Ski wrote:
Shoplifters work around the clock. All day. Every day.
...
A staff member up at the Safeway near me told me the loss rate at that location was about $550K every 6 months.

What happens is.... we pay for it in increased prices.

I know nothing about that industry, but the number seems a little high for shoplifting alone. Maybe they meant that's the total shrink, which I believe includes employee and vendor theft as well.

The "we" pay for it in increased prices is always an interesting issue. I mean, I more or less assume it's true in some manner, but when we are looking to blame others for these presumably increased prices, where is the line between stealing and just being clever or thrifty or something else? In other words, is it only the shoplifter and the thieving vendor and employee who are responsible for the "rest of us" paying higher prices?

For example, I've often wondered about discount codes that occasionally get posted online. I'm often curious as to whether they are entirely above board or not, but usually don't want to risk possible offense by posing the question. But let's say that someone posts discount codes online, and (assuming for purposes of this question) that either the method of earning or the redemption of the codes does not fully comply with the terms and conditions of the particular program that generates the codes. Is a person who uses such a code one of "them" or one of "us"?

As far as the problem being people brazenly wheeling out full carts of expensive meats (what, no alcohol?) because they know they won't be confronted, I have no idea what the relative breakout is, but I found this article interesting:

The Dark Art of Stealing From Self-Checkouts.
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Ski
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 am 
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catsp wrote:
"...the number seems a little high for shoplifting alone. Maybe they meant that's the total shrink..."

Yes, total shrink rate. Sorry I wasn't clear on that above.
(I don't know about Safeway, but way back when, our employee theft exceeded customer theft by a huge margin.)

catsp wrote:
The "we" pay for it in increased prices is always an interesting issue.

Yes.
Items on which there are high shoplifting rates are marked up to provide some "cushion" for the retailer.
I did it when pricing stuff at retail level for a chain of six stores 30 years ago, and they're still doing it today.
Package of four small chair glides (ACE) retail $3.99 - employee price: $0.82 (10% above store cost, including 10.2% sales tax)
Package of one Duracell watch battery (ACE) retail $7.99 - employee price $ 0.78 (10% above store cost, including 10.2% sales tax)
I used to do store cost X 5 or maybe store cost X 6 on high-theft items (e.g., #11040 4-ounce bottle of Armor-All), but I never managed to get cost X 10 on many items (other than bulk nuts and bolts and brass fittings.)

So.... don't think for a minute that YOU are not paying for what's being stolen.

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Ski
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PostTue Dec 03, 2019 11:46 am 
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catsp wrote:
"... I found this article interesting..."

Indeed.
I see that as good news. The bean-counters and marketing managers are the ones who wanted the self check-out lanes to reduce their overhead costs, and they are now reaping the rewards of their efforts. The shoplifting and price manipulating at the self check-out lanes has come around full circle to bite them in the ass.
Perhaps the management at Safeway and Fred Meyer will have some epiphany and get rid of theirs as well.

On a separate note: I noticed recently that Fred Meyer stores locally got rid of those idiotic change machines (that always inexplicably give you a handful of nickels) and the checkers now give the change back all out of the register drawer. Perhaps this is an indication that somebody somewhere realized that employing the use of automated machines at point of sale isn't always the best way to do business.

lol.gif

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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