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Logbear
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Logbear
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:02 pm 
[quote="RandyHiker"]
Ski wrote:
The bill stopped moving at the end of 2018, the same year that the Republican-controlled House of Representatives changed to a Democrat-controlled House of Representative. Nothing has happened since December 2018. The bill died in committee. Done. Dead. Happens all the time. If House Speaker Pelosi wants to bring it back up, it might be revived and brought back to life, but I wouldn't bet somebody else's money on that happening. ========================================================= Rep Duncan Hunter who introduced the bill barely survived the 2018 election -- he won by 14 percent in 2016, but less than 4 percent in 2018 Plus -- Rep Hunter recently plead guilty to federal charges of conspiracy to steal campaign funds. LINK So it seems Rep Hunter has had other more pressing issues to attend to than H.R. 1349 -- it seems unlikely the Rep Hunter will be taking up action on that bill in the foreseeable future -- former GOP Rep Darrell Issa has announced plans to run for the California 50 seat.
I don't keep up on this kind of political intrigue, so can anyone tell me if this bill is dead or alive. It's been a year since it was introduced. H.R.7367 - To designate a peak in the State of Washington as "Mount Cleator". https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/7367/text?r=35&s=8

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:04 pm 
I'm afraid I don't understand this need to "pay dues". I am a taxpayer. I have already done volunteer work on trails. I have not built illegal trails. I'd tell "Jimmy" that it is public land and he does not have to do a damn thing if he doesn't want to.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:08 pm 
Tom wrote:
I don't disagree that they put in much effort to get where they are. No matter how complicated the history is I would not tell Jimmy he must first pay his dues. He gets to play or not based on other merits.
Jimmy gets to play with his motorized vehicle where it is allowed with the other motorized vehicles. If Jimmy wants more space, Jimmy can organize and work and build trust and dig and make more space.

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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:09 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand this need to "pay dues". I am a taxpayer. I have already done volunteer work on trails. I have not built illegal trails. I'd tell "Jimmy" that it is public land and he does not have to do a damn thing if he doesn't want to.
What would you tell mountain bikers 20 or 30 years ago? Dont be a hypocrite.

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Ski
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:12 pm 
FiveNines wrote:
"Tom....
Well said, sir. Sounds like the e-bike manufacturers need to take the initiative and get organized and put forth the same sort of efforts we've seen from EMBA. They will also, as does the regular MTB community, step up and take a more assertive position when it comes to the sort of activities described in the articles and the video that treeswarper cited above.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:15 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
What would you tell mountain bikers 20 or 30 years ago? Dont be a hypocrite.
I dont see any hypocrisy in his argument

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:20 pm 
Pahoehoe wrote:
Jimmy gets to play with his motorized vehicle where it is allowed with the other motorized vehicles. If Jimmy wants more space, Jimmy can organize and work and build trust and dig and make more space.
Jimmy can also work to get others to share, since his bike doesn't emit exhaust or noise.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:20 pm 
FiveNines wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
Tom wrote:
If Jimmy gets a MTB he's paid his dues by default? But if Jimmy gets an e-MTB he hasn't paid his dues by default?
Good catch
Tom. I think that's a rather simplistic view of Pahoehoe's arguments. Given her high post volume, I'm surprised that she did not take the opportunity to articulate them better. Sure, MtnGoat can be satisfied w/a weak rhetorical take, but at the risk of speaking inaccurately for her, I'd like to try to dig a little deeper. MTBs have worked and volunteered a long time for the access they have. Going to land use meetings. Doing politics. Making deals. Making friends w/other groups. Forging a seat at the table. At the same time MTBs have backed up their politics with work in the field. Lots of new trails all over the state/country built by evergreens or other clubs. Volunteer days constructing and maintaining trail networks. In western washington the last 5 years have been a golden era of access for MTBs and compromise with other user groups. It took more than 20 years of prior effort to get there. These are the dues. eMTBs are newer on the scene. Lots of other user groups at the table are concerned about them. They do not have a reputation in land use / access politics yet. eMTB organized volunteer lobby or labor groups don't exist yet. They are gaining a bad reputation on trails (pahoehoe story, horsemen). Plus they have a motor. They are not MTBs. They have not paid their dues. Horseys paid their dues in the 60s. Creation of Wilderness Act. They are grandfathered in regardless of present damage or impact. But they also keep paying their dues in the same ways described above for MTB. Therefore, they get to have a seat at the table. If Jimmy gets a bike, he's choosing to join a club that has paid it's dues. If his folks get him an eMTB, they're giving Jimmy an opportunity to pay his dues, for himself and his hobby. To be a pioneer. Which he could do. Or he could poach. Or junk the eMTB, get a horse, and join a club with dues already paid in full. That's what's super cool about america, informed choice! My own opinion. MTBs worked super hard to overcome the Manning Legacy in the I90 corridor. A lot of them are pretty scared they're going to lose their access and goodwill due to being lumped in with eMTBs by other land users who don't know, or care, about the difference.
Thank you for articulating this so well. This is why I do not want ebikes lumped in as mountain bikes. Leave them separate, give them a bit of access and see how it goes. I'm not anti ebike, I'm anti lumping ebikes with mountain bikes.

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MultiUser
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:23 pm 
Ski wrote:
FiveNines wrote:
"Tom....
Well said, sir. Sounds like the e-bike manufacturers need to take the initiative and get organized and put forth the same sort of efforts we've seen from EMBA. They will also, as does the regular MTB community, step up and take a more assertive position when it comes to the sort of activities described in the articles and the video that treeswarper cited above.
Based on past experiences, it's unlikely we'll see ebike makers doing work similar to EMBA or supporting EMBA. Thus far, they have opted to support People for Bikes, and push for legislative entry to trails, instead of building goodwill on the ground with land managers, the way local mtb groups have done for years. EMBA gets minimal support from traditional bike makers as well. With very few exceptions, the brands seem far more concerned with selling bikes than with ensuring their customers have trail access to ride them.

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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:25 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
If Jimmy gets a horse hes paid is dues by default? But if Jimmy gets a bike he hasnt paid his dues by default?
You're the one making the 'paid their dues' argument, therefore you're the one who needs to defend it. Questioning a question to evade answering it, is not an answer.
Actually I was responding to your reasoning for allowing horses in the wilderness but not bikes even though horses leave a huge impact when you keep saying ebikes should be allowed in non motorized areas because you claim they dont have a bigger impact than human powered bikes.

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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:27 pm 
MultiUser wrote:
Ski wrote:
FiveNines wrote:
"Tom....
Well said, sir. Sounds like the e-bike manufacturers need to take the initiative and get organized and put forth the same sort of efforts we've seen from EMBA. They will also, as does the regular MTB community, step up and take a more assertive position when it comes to the sort of activities described in the articles and the video that treeswarper cited above.
Based on past experiences, it's unlikely we'll see ebike makers doing work similar to EMBA or supporting EMBA. Thus far, they have opted to support People for Bikes, and push for legislative entry to trails, instead of building goodwill on the ground with land managers, the way local mtb groups have done for years. EMBA gets minimal support from traditional bike makers as well. With very few exceptions, the brands seem far more concerned with selling bikes than with ensuring their customers have trail access to ride them.
Mostly, as far as in industry support, it comes from your local bike shop. Support them, please.

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Randito
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:36 pm 
Logbear wrote:
I don't keep up on this kind of political intrigue, so can anyone tell me if this bill is dead or alive. It's been a year since it was introduced. H.R.7367 - To designate a peak in the State of Washington as "Mount Cleator". https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/7367/text?r=35&s=8
Bill are only "dead dead dead" the committee votes to kill them or if they somehow got out of committee and were defeated in a floor vote. The later is rare as bill don't typically get approved by committees until success of a floor vote is likely. Bills that don't get out of committee may at some later date be reconsidered -- but only if a representative on the committee takes action.

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neek
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:41 pm 
Ha! I have a picture taken from Mt. Cleator hanging on my wall. Hope that bill doesn't die, or I'll have to take it down.

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Logbear
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 9:59 pm 
From what I can tell, neither... H.R.1349 - To amend the Wilderness Act to ensure that the use of bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers, and game carts is not prohibited in Wilderness Areas, and for other purposes. or H.R.7367 - To designate a peak in the State of Washington as "Mount Cleator". ...has had any vote to kill them. Therefore... Bills that don't get out of committee may at some later date be reconsidered -- but only if a representative on the committee takes action. Both of these bills are listed as... "Introduced"

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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Tom
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PostWed Dec 11, 2019 10:31 pm 
NPS says all Jimmy needs to do is make sure his e-bike motor is 750W nominal (or less), use pedals (only) to activate motorized assist, and only ride where bikes can go (unless deemed inappropriate for e-bike use). NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride where bikes aren't allowed because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride his e-bike with throttle because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say Jimmy can have a 1000W motor because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride on bike trails the park superintendent deemed non-suitable for e-bikes because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say the you must pay your dues argument is bullsh##. I do though.

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