Forum Index > Trail Talk > Electric bikes soon to be humming along national park trails
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
Pahoehoe
Member
PostWed Dec 11, 2019 10:37 pm 
NPS doesnt know Jimmy switched out the stickers so his over power and over speed ebike doesnt look any different from anyone elses legal class 1 bikes. NPS also doesnt know that the lever Jimmy says is for his dropper is actually the throttle. Too bad for grandma. It wasnt a reindeer that ran her over. It was Jimmy on his HPC scout Pro ebike with motor upgrade.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
RumiDude
Marmota olympus



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3579 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
PostWed Dec 11, 2019 10:39 pm 
I am pretty sure that any bill which is unacted upon in a particular Congress is technically dead. a new Congress is elected every two years. The current Congress is the 116th Congress. Of course any member could reintroduce the same bill at any time in a later Congress. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostWed Dec 11, 2019 10:42 pm 
Well, it that's the best argument you have to have to deny Jimmy legally riding his bike then I suppose you will just keep coming up with arguments like Jimmy must pay his dues.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Logbear
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 493 | TRs | Pics
Location: Getchell. Wash
Logbear
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 12:17 am 
I'm starting to rethink this bike/e-bike/horse/wilderness thing. Seriously. I can think of a great potential bike trip from South Lake to North Lake in the Sierra. 55 miles. 9400' of gain and loss. It is in a Wilderness Area, but the trail is maintained for stock, so bikes shouldn't have a problem. Maybe they could allow bikes on a trial basis. Would the 55 miles and 9400' of gain/loss be possible on an EMTB? If not the whole loop, round trip to Bishop Pass (20 miles), RT to Piute Pass (10 miles). I can imagine sitting at Dusy Basin watching the sunset as a silent bike, or several bikes, go by on the nearby trail. I don't think I'd even notice. I was at Bishop Pass once back in 1972, when a pack train went by. With all the talking, horse noises, hoofs hitting rocks, etc., I couldn't ignore it if I wanted to. Don't get me wrong. I liked seeing the pack train. It was very...nostalgic. Romantic. I don't know what word to use. It was like the old days. Now I see a family of four deciding between a 4 day horse pack trip that would cost about $8,000, or a couple of e-bikes for the kids. One 4 day trip (with no cell service), or lots of trips. I would imagine this is a concern for pack outfitters. Maybe the pack stations could rent EMTB's. The quota system in the Inyo National Forest is very extensive, but it's just for overnight trips. With a quota of 51 people per day, the Bishop Pass trail doesn't have much solitude. Day use is controlled by how far you're willing to park from the trailhead. Would more people opt for a day trip on a bike instead of overnight. That's less impact. When I started hiking in the Sierra's in 1968, the back-country was trashed. Literally. I think everyone back then ate VanDCamp Beans, Spam, and beer, and left the empty's. Somewhere I have a picture of a huge pile of plastic bags full of garbage at the South Lake parking lot. As a Boy Scout project, I handed out plastic bags to backpackers and asked them to bring them back full of trash. Over the days the pile got bigger and bigger. There isn't much if any trash in the back-country these days. Just lots of people. For Washington, would the Enchantment Lakes trail be ride-able? How about Spider Meadows? Wouldn't any stock suitable trail be suitable for bikes? I'm still having a hard time accepting the idea of bikes in the wilderness. But I have adapted from... map and compass to GPS. Wood fire to JetBoil. Kelty frame to internal frame. Cotton Ventile to Gortex. The list goes on. But before anyone thinks I've totally lost my mind, I draw the line with motorcycles. They are just plain noisy and stinky. I know. I have Honda CT110. To do future adaptation list: CT110 to EMTB

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian R
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Posts: 501 | TRs | Pics
Brian R
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 am 
FiveNines wrote:
MTBs have worked and volunteered a long time for the access they have. Going to land use meetings. Doing politics. Making deals. Making friends w/other groups. Forging a seat at the table. At the same time MTBs have backed up their politics with work in the field. Lots of new trails all over the state/country built by evergreens or other clubs. Volunteer days constructing and maintaining trail networks. In western washington the last 5 years have been a golden era of access for MTBs and compromise with other user groups. It took more than 20 years of prior effort to get there. These are the dues. Horseys paid their dues in the 60s. Creation of Wilderness Act. They are grandfathered in regardless of present damage or impact. But they also keep paying their dues in the same ways described above for MTB. Therefore, they get to have a seat at the table. If Jimmy gets a bike, he's choosing to join a club that has paid it's dues. If his folks get him an eMTB, they're giving Jimmy an opportunity to pay his dues, for himself and his hobby. To be a pioneer. Which he could do. Or he could poach. Or junk the eMTB, get a horse, and join a club with dues already paid in full. That's what's super cool about america, informed choice! My own opinion. MTBs worked super hard to overcome the Manning Legacy in the I90 corridor. A lot of them are pretty scared they're going to lose their access and goodwill due to being lumped in with eMTBs by other land users who don't know, or care, about the difference.
I am still leaning toward the pro ebike side--but above are the most compelling against arguments I've yet heard. Especially that last paragraph. In any event, my only interest lies in keeping decommissioned roads/double track open to pedal assist ebikes in places like Westside, Carbon, Dosewallips, Stehekin, similar.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 12:45 am 
If it's wilderness ebikes would be out. If ebikes are allowed you'd be hard pressed to find an e-bike that could do 10K of gain on a single charge. A capable e-MTB with a decent battery might be able to do 5K of climb (with a lot of pedaling) but I doubt you'd find a place willing to part with $20K value of ebikes for 4 days. Local shop here told me they rent out their sole remaining $5K value demo eMTB for $125 a day. Apparently they used to rent out more, but fraudsters rented a bunch of their bikes and never brought them back.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian R
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Posts: 501 | TRs | Pics
Brian R
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 1:07 am 
The problem is that even when road washouts occur, wilderness boundaries remain static. In most national parks, a "cherry-stem" exempts 50' on either side of the road from its center. In other words, the cherry-stem is a non-wilderness corridor surrounded by designated wilderness. Hence, when the river claims a section of road, a detour into designated wilderness becomes necessary. If you're on a bike, you are now SOL.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 2:01 am 
The wilderness act says no mechanized transport. You might not get away with rolling it but perhaps you could carry it over the wilderness sections.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 7:22 am 
Pahoehoe wrote:
NPS doesnt know Jimmy switched out the stickers so his over power and over speed ebike doesnt look any different from anyone elses legal class 1 bikes.NPS also doesnt know that the lever Jimmy says is for his dropper is actually the throttle.
From what I read of actual ebike experiences, from actual ebike riders, NPS and others don't care about stickers and throttles and power if Jimmy rides in a polite manner. Of course, should Jimmy have all or not have, Jimmy is at the mercy of an enthusiastic Junior Ranger. Also, I am thinking that stickers only apply to our state and others that have mandated them. I purchased my last bike in Oregon and it has no sticker. Nor does my Rad because it was purchased in the pre sticker days. So, that sticker bit isn't all that great. This thread really demonstrates all the misconceptions and stereotyping done by non e bike riders. It shows why such people should not be making the rules and how prejudice they are.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 7:24 am 
Tom wrote:
The wilderness act says no mechanized transport. You might not get away with rolling it but perhaps you could carry it over the wilderness sections.
You might have to disassemble a bike. That's what crews have had to do with chainsaws, or so I heard, whilst carrying them through a wilderness area.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
Pahoehoe
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 7:35 am 
treeswarper wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
NPS doesnt know Jimmy switched out the stickers so his over power and over speed ebike doesnt look any different from anyone elses legal class 1 bikes.NPS also doesnt know that the lever Jimmy says is for his dropper is actually the throttle.
From what I read of actual ebike experiences, from actual ebike riders, NPS and others don't care about stickers and throttles and power if Jimmy rides in a polite manner. Of course, should Jimmy have all or not have, Jimmy is at the mercy of an enthusiastic Junior Ranger. Also, I am thinking that stickers only apply to our state and others that have mandated them. I purchased my last bike in Oregon and it has no sticker. Nor does my Rad because it was purchased in the pre sticker days. So, that sticker bit isn't all that great. This thread really demonstrates all the misconceptions and stereotyping done by non e bike riders. It shows why such people should not be making the rules and how prejudice they are.
By calling a vehicle with a motor motorized?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 9:07 am 
Tom wrote:
NPS says all Jimmy needs to do is make sure his e-bike motor is 750W nominal (or less), use pedals (only) to activate motorized assist, and only ride where bikes can go (unless deemed inappropriate for e-bike use). NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride where bikes aren't allowed because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride his e-bike with throttle because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say Jimmy can have a 1000W motor because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say Jimmy can ride on bike trails the park superintendent deemed non-suitable for e-bikes because he paid his dues. NPS doesn't say the you must pay your dues argument is bullsh##. I do though.
up.gif

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 9:13 am 
treeswarper wrote:
From what I read of actual ebike experiences, from actual ebike riders, NPS and others don't care about stickers and throttles and power if Jimmy rides in a polite manner. Of course, should Jimmy have all or not have, Jimmy is at the mercy of an enthusiastic Junior Ranger. Also, I am thinking that stickers only apply to our state and others that have mandated them. I purchased my last bike in Oregon and it has no sticker. Nor does my Rad because it was purchased in the pre sticker days. So, that sticker bit isn't all that great. This thread really demonstrates all the misconceptions and stereotyping done by non e bike riders. It shows why such people should not be making the rules and how prejudice they are.
You just haven't 'paid your dues', because somehow taxes don't count.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Randito
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment.
Randito
Snarky Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 9:23 am 
Brian R wrote:
The problem is that even when road washouts occur, wilderness boundaries remain static. In most national parks, a "cherry-stem" exempts 50' on either side of the road from its center. In other words, the cherry-stem is a non-wilderness corridor surrounded by designated wilderness. Hence, when the river claims a section of road, a detour into designated wilderness becomes necessary. If you're on a bike, you are now SOL.
That's incorrect in a number of aspects. 1) The buffer zone around the road is a half mile not 50ft 2) Many of said roads were hastily built prior to the wilderness being designated in an attempt to prevent to entire valley around the road from being included in the wilderness. 3) The hasty road construction resulted in roads that were in poor shape very quickly. Two notable examples are the upper Middle Fork Snoqualmie river road and the Taylor River road, both of which have been abandoned for vehicle access, but converted to a trail for hikers and cyclists. Can you provide a specific example of a 100 foot wide strip as you described?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 563 | TRs | Pics
Pahoehoe
Member
PostThu Dec 12, 2019 10:11 am 
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why motorized bikes should have an exception to non motorized rules because they perceive the impact of their motor not a big deal when bikes cannot have an exception to the no mechanized travel rule when their impact is obviously and empirically less than horse which are allowed.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Trail Talk > Electric bikes soon to be humming along national park trails
  Happy Birthday speyguy, Bandanabraids!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum