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BigBrunyon
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BigBrunyon
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 12:28 am 
Go figure, America is not competing HARD enough relatively speaking! Theres food out to get and we're not even trying! Opting to eat small plates or vegetarian plates. Not a big fan of "small plate" culture and clearly its leading to this recent hunter decline!!!

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Ski
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 12:41 am 
Brian R wrote:
We're talking about guns here
No, we're talking about hunting and how it relates to public lands management. People hunt with bows too. The issues are access, and money needed for the stewardship of those public lands by our public lands management agencies. In the case of Washington State, the Department of Fish and Wildlife and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Reduction in hunting licenses = less money = less enforcement action, fewer public land acquisition deals (of which there are no fewer than 18 under consideration presently), and fewer recreational opportunities for those who use public lands which are managed by WDFW or USFWS. Fishing also needs to be part of this discussion, as the money from fishing license sales also goes to support WDFW. This isn't about guns. It has nothing to do with guns. There's a separate thread for gun discussions HERE. Mr. Workman was kind enough to outline several of the issues which currently exist, all of which warrant consideration and are worth discussing. The most important of those is the elephant in the living room: money. It's entirely possible, and I believe more than likely, that WDFW needs to re-prioritize the use of the funds in its budget. The conundrum, of course, is that the Endangered Species Act has at its very core the primary tenet of "at any cost". This is in direct conflict with the reality of there not being an endless supply of money.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Brian R
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Brian R
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 1:15 am 
Very poor form, Ski. I'm afraid you've taken my comment about guns completely out of context--and are being a bit of an ass even if we mostly agree on the rest. My comment about guns was in anticipation of objections to my supposition that the bar is, perhaps, too high vis a vis obtaining a hunter safety training certificate. If you've ever looked at the course material, you would understand that a large part of it is, in fact, about firearm safety. (And being a bow hunter does not exempt you from taking and passing the course.) Carry on, smart guy.

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Bernardo
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Bernardo
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 4:17 am 
No, we are having a good conversation. Chill and continue please.

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Ski
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 4:32 am 
grammatical error in above post corrected. form should be just fine now.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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timberghost
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 4:58 am 
The cost of managing animals on the ESA is very expensive with most of the burden falling upon the state. The small return on that investment may or may not happen for years. Then there is the organizations that take states or federal departments to court costing those departments alot of money on reimbursement of attorney fees.

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Ski
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 5:06 am 
What return on investment? Monetarily? How does that work with..... Mazama Pocket Gophers? Snowy Plovers? Oregon Spotted Frogs? Larch Mountain Salamanders? The reimbursement of legal fees is done through the Equal Access to Justice Act, a federal statute. Is that money paid out by the State or the Federal government? (I'm not an attorney, so I don't know.) Either way: it's that "at any cost" part that makes it unsustainable over the long term.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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cdestroyer
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 8:35 am 
I don't know about after 1973 requirement for the training course. I had to attend the course in 1960 in order to get a license. And it had a lot to do with safe handling of firearms and not a lot about how to hunt, tracking,spotting etc. Back then most everyone had some firearm at home and many hunted elk/deer/upland birds and even downland birds. We ate well! But now with less monies from logging and depending mostly on tax of sporting goods and higher costs to the hunters/fishermen griz will have to come here on there own cause we aint gonna haul em!

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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 8:50 am 
The decline in hunters has more to do with demographics, population distribution, and changing social mores than amount of game, license fees, or education costs. When I was young in a semi rural area the beginning of deer season was looked forward to and prepared fore more than Halloween. Recreational hiking was mostly done by a group of cranky Scandinavians. Now hiking is a spot of the masses and hunting more of a fringe activity. Not right or wrong just the way it is.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Ski
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 10:40 am 
Quote:
The decline in hunters has more to do with demographics, population distribution, and changing social mores than amount of game, license fees, or education costs. When I was young in a semi rural area the beginning of deer season was looked forward to and prepared fore more than Halloween. Recreational hiking was mostly done by a group of cranky Scandinavians. Now hiking is a spot of the masses and hunting more of a fringe activity. Not right or wrong just the way it is.
^ pretty much nailed it here. but..... you really think we Scandinavians are cranky? dizzy.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 11:43 am 
Who will pay for the wolves and griz and whatever other troublesome species deemed to be dump worthy in the name of restoration? Dump defined as in dumped from one of those bear barrel traps on wheels. Or helicoptered in.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 1:23 pm 
Ski wrote:
^ pretty much nailed it here. but..... you really think we Scandinavians are cranky? dizzy.gif
I am half Scandinavian and kinda cranky clown.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Ski
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 3:02 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
"Who will pay for the..."
You. Me. Everybody else. This is the sort of thing I was referring to above when I suggested that WDFW needs to reassess their priorities. Again, the conundrum is that they're charged by Congress to comply with the ESA at any cost, notwithstanding fiscal reality. In the case of the wolf, even when WDFW and USFWS are in full compliance with both the ESA and the terms of the Washington State Wolf Management Plan that the interested parties (such as Center for Biological Diversity and Defenders of Wildlife) all agreed to, when it comes time to de-list the wolf, or start issuing wolf hunting permits, those same groups turn around and file lawsuits which are brought up before sympathetic judges, as has already happened elsewhere. Perhaps it will finally reach a tipping point when all of the hunters and fishermen decide they've had enough and they all stop buying licenses.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 4:46 pm 
The decline of hunting is mentioned in this article. Bad Turkeys

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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timberghost
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PostTue Dec 24, 2019 7:51 pm 
I know alot of hunters and a high portion are now hunting in Idaho and Montana. For most it's about opportunity to possible harvest a deer or elk. The success rate for the general season has dropped off to somewhere around 5%.

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