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Would banning dogs on the trails in the ALW north of I-90 change your hiking habits?
If I can't take my dog, I would go hike somewhere that I could take him/her
45%
 45%  [ 9 ]
I would leave fido or fluffy at home and go hike there anyway
55%
 55%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 20

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timberghost
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PostMon Jan 13, 2020 6:34 am 
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I think it would be better to ban people on those trails who are carrying a cell phone looking to take a selfie.
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Sallie4jo
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PostTue Jan 21, 2020 2:15 pm 
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My thought continues to be if a person picks up their dogs poop in a bag and leaves it for someone else to pick up..that person should not own a dog.  This issue is getting worse and it totally drives me batty.  I dont get the ignorance and laziness of so many!  Ok..re snow lake trail...that trail has been way busy for many, many years..not sure what else to say.

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Gwen
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PostTue Jan 21, 2020 8:54 pm 
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thunderhead wrote:
inconsiderate slowpokes

What, exactly, is it that makes people who hike at a slower pace inconsiderate? That stupid statement makes me feel like you're tge inconsiderate one for not understanding that not all folks are gonna move at your pace. Feh.

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Atomc
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 10:27 am 
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You need places like snow lakes, lake 22, and rattlesnake ledge to take the brunt of the casual crowd. Make the parking lots huge, put a bathroom at the bottom, and let people take their selfies. I don't hike rattlesnake ledge because I know there will be a million people on it. Hell, I don't really hike anything on the i90 corridor for that reason. You all know where the less traveled trails are, if you're looking for solitude you know where to find it. Go to Dickerman on a summer weekend and there will be a hundred cars in the parking lot. 99% of those people will be on Dickerman, despite the better hike being on the other end of the parking lot. Just the way she goes.
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 10:34 am 
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There's no better hike on the other end of the parking lot.  These are not the droids you seek.
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Atomc
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 12:21 pm 
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Oh you’re right, what was I thinking
wink.gif
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Randito
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 12:36 pm 
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Atomc wrote:
I don't hike rattlesnake ledge because I know there will be a million people on it.

The Rattlesnake Ledge trail is popular enough that I think building a second trail so there is one for up and one for down would be a useful idea.    The number of parking spaces would need to be expanded as well -- on decent weather weekends there are already problems with cars parking on the shoulder along the Cedar Falls road.

Rattlesnake ledge is super popular for good reasons -- it's close, it's enough effort to feel like more than a stroll around Greenlake and the view is spectacular.

I suspect/hope that the new Garfield Ledges trail develops a similar popularity, though parking there is currently much more limited.
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cascadeclimber
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 1:39 pm 
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Gwen wrote:
thunderhead wrote:
inconsiderate slowpokes

What, exactly, is it that makes people who hike at a slower pace inconsiderate? That stupid statement makes me feel like you're tge inconsiderate one for not understanding that not all folks are gonna move at your pace. Feh.

I don't care how fast a group is moving. I do care if they refuse to let faster parties pass, and I don't care who's going which direction. If someone is running down move aside. If you are picking your way down and someone is jogging up, move aside. The people who clog trails probably drove to them in the left lane of the freeway at 50 MPH.

My position on responsible dog management on trails is (in)famous here. Basically, your choice to hike with a dog shouldn't impact other trail users. These impacts include:

- Dog turds, bagged or not, left for ANY amount of time on the trail. If you don't want to bag and carry it, leave your dog at home. Imagine how much you want to see a steaming human turd along the trail. That's how much I want to see dog turds, bagged or not.
- Dogs running loose at any time on trails. Anyone who, like me, has been bitten on a trail can avail you of how upsetting loose dogs are forever after. And no, the 'friendliness' of your dog is not relevant. When I was bitten the first thing the mindless owner said was "Oh, he's friendly". No, no he is not. And I don't care if your dog 'feels safer' off leash. Humans don't feel safer with your dog off leash, and that's more important than feelings you are projecting on your dog.
- 20 foot 'leashes' that become trip hazards or allow your dog to be a trip hazard.
- Barking, chasing, begging for food or water or attention.
- Any sort of assumption that other people want to interact with your dog, regardless of how 'friendly', 'cute', 'adorable', etc. it is.

The more people on trails the more important it is to consider the impact of one's behavior on others. Aside from what's above...

- Blaring music from any sort of speaker that isn't in or on your ears.
- Shouting, hollering, disturbing the peace for sake of doing so. i.e. for reason other than you are lost or have a compound femur fracture.
- Littering. This includes nut shells, fruit peels, etc. If your brought it with you, take it home.
- Picking flowers
- Knowing the difference between tromping around off-trail on a crappy third-growth I-90 training hike and doing so in a fragile alpine environment. Same for camping. And building campfires.
- Throwing logs in muddy spots. All that does is make more mud. It's a trail and it's Seattle: There will be mud. Don't wear suede shoes. Stomp in the mud puddles; it's fun!
- On those scutty hikes, like CL, old Si, old Kamikazee, old Mailbox, etc. it's not your job to be the trail police and block the old routes that have been used for decades. In alpine zones, yes, and I've more than once admonished tourons in the Paradise meadows who were standing on wildflowers adjacent to 'stay on trail' signs for a selfie. But if someone is ignoring a 200 yard switchback in favor of a 30 foot old route on a west slope 3rd growth forested trail like old Mailbox, it's not a problem.

Lastly, the idea of running shuttles to address full parking lots only to cause further overcrowding on trails is idiocy. I do not get the thought process that leads to adding shuttles to overrun, eroding, littered, grafittied trails any more than I understand how the DNR closes the south face finish to Poo Poo to 'protect the environment' and then clear-cuts 40 acres immediately adjacent. Those signs, if truthful, would say "Hike wherever you want. Clear-cutting causes erosion."

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Atomc
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 1:52 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
Blaring music from any sort of speaker that isn't in or on your ears.

Yakety Sax blaring on repeat is a must have for any FKT attempts.
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seattlenativemike
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
Gwen wrote:
thunderhead wrote:
inconsiderate slowpokes

What, exactly, is it that makes people who hike at a slower pace inconsiderate? That stupid statement makes me feel like you're tge inconsiderate one for not understanding that not all folks are gonna move at your pace. Feh.

I don't care how fast a group is moving. I do care if they refuse to let faster parties pass, and I don't care who's going which direction. If someone is running down move aside. If you are picking your way down and someone is jogging up, move aside. The people who clog trails probably drove to them in the left lane of the freeway at 50 MPH.

My position on responsible dog management on trails is (in)famous here. Basically, your choice to hike with a dog shouldn't impact other trail users. These impacts include:

- Dog turds, bagged or not, left for ANY amount of time on the trail. If you don't want to bag and carry it, leave your dog at home. Imagine how much you want to see a steaming human turd along the trail. That's how much I want to see dog turds, bagged or not.
- Dogs running loose at any time on trails. Anyone who, like me, has been bitten on a trail can avail you of how upsetting loose dogs are forever after. And no, the 'friendliness' of your dog is not relevant. When I was bitten the first thing the mindless owner said was "Oh, he's friendly". No, no he is not. And I don't care if your dog 'feels safer' off leash. Humans don't feel safer with your dog off leash, and that's more important than feelings you are projecting on your dog.
- 20 foot 'leashes' that become trip hazards or allow your dog to be a trip hazard.
- Barking, chasing, begging for food or water or attention.
- Any sort of assumption that other people want to interact with your dog, regardless of how 'friendly', 'cute', 'adorable', etc. it is.

The more people on trails the more important it is to consider the impact of one's behavior on others. Aside from what's above...

- Blaring music from any sort of speaker that isn't in or on your ears.
- Shouting, hollering, disturbing the peace for sake of doing so. i.e. for reason other than you are lost or have a compound femur fracture.
- Littering. This includes nut shells, fruit peels, etc. If your brought it with you, take it home.
- Picking flowers
- Knowing the difference between tromping around off-trail on a crappy third-growth I-90 training hike and doing so in a fragile alpine environment. Same for camping. And building campfires.
- Throwing logs in muddy spots. All that does is make more mud. It's a trail and it's Seattle: There will be mud. Don't wear suede shoes. Stomp in the mud puddles; it's fun!
- On those scutty hikes, like CL, old Si, old Kamikazee, old Mailbox, etc. it's not your job to be the trail police and block the old routes that have been used for decades. In alpine zones, yes, and I've more than once admonished tourons in the Paradise meadows who were standing on wildflowers adjacent to 'stay on trail' signs for a selfie. But if someone is ignoring a 200 yard switchback in favor of a 30 foot old route on a west slope 3rd growth forested trail like old Mailbox, it's not a problem.

Lastly, the idea of running shuttles to address full parking lots only to cause further overcrowding on trails is idiocy. I do not get the thought process that leads to adding shuttles to overrun, eroding, littered, grafittied trails any more than I understand how the DNR closes the south face finish to Poo Poo to 'protect the environment' and then clear-cuts 40 acres immediately adjacent. Those signs, if truthful, would say "Hike wherever you want. Clear-cutting causes erosion."

spot on...another group of reasons to avoid I90 hikes
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Ski
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PostTue Jan 28, 2020 11:01 pm 
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man I sure hope you have some other kinds of hobbies that allow you to relax and give you some inner peace, because it's evident that hiking certainly does not.

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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 9:04 am 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
Knowing the difference between tromping around off-trail on a crappy third-growth I-90 training hike and doing so in a fragile alpine environment

cascadeclimber wrote:
On those scutty hikes, like CL, old Si, old Kamikazee, old Mailbox, etc. it's not your job to be the trail police and block the old routes that have been used for decades. In alpine zones, yes, and I've more than once admonished tourons in the Paradise meadows who were standing on wildflowers adjacent to 'stay on trail' signs for a selfie. But if someone is ignoring a 200 yard switchback in favor of a 30 foot old route on a west slope 3rd growth forested trail like old Mailbox, it's not a problem.

Umm, so basically if you want to cut a switch back, its ok but only where you want to?

Erosion causes more problems than just trail damage.  It sends sediment into waterways and harms fish for one.  If the land managers want to close and rehabilitate old steep trails that turn into muddy streams during the rainy season YOU need to respect that just like "tourons" need to respect stay on the trail signs in "pristine" places like Paradise.

Trails like mailbox and Si and other "non-pristine" places should be like a training ground.

The more traffic an area sees, the more important it is to stay on the trail and follow rules, both LNT and trail etiquette.

Ohh, and get over yourself...
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nickmtn
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 10:20 am 
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Has anyone considered moving any of these popular trails to areas with existing parking lots?

For instance the Rattlesnake Ledge trail could be moved to Redmond Town Center, which has a large parking garage. The trail itself could wind its way through Marymoor Park. I would like to see the Old Mailbox Trail moved to Seatac. The parking ramps at the airport could easily accommodate the current car traffic, and the trail itself could be relocated to utilize existing sidewalks in Seatac and Burien.
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Randito
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 10:56 am 
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nickmtn wrote:
Rattlesnake Ledge trail could be moved to Redmond Town Center,

There already are trails that connect Redmond Town Center to Rattlesnake Ledge -- so problem already solved -- or are you just too lazy to make the 77 mile round trip?
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cascadeclimber
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 2:34 pm 
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Ski wrote:
man I sure hope you have some other kinds of hobbies that allow you to relax and give you some inner peace, because it's evident that hiking certainly does not.

It sure used to. And less these days, as the cumulative frustration has built up, and not none. Getting bitten, chased, stepping in and smelling poop, and by physically threatened by lunatic dog people over and over and over and over and over will do that.

More and more research is being done showing profound benefits of exercise in the outdoors, particularly with some bit of solitude/quiet. And the opportunities for that are being unnecessarily annihilated around Seattle, especially in winter. I don't begrudge people who want a Snow Lake highway/trail. Knock yourselves out. And not every trailhead and trail needs or should be made like that; it's okay to leave small parking lots and rough trails for people who prefer as much.

But hurrahing bigger parking lots and 'easier' trails and more signs and better roads and parking lot toilets and other amenities at Alpine Lake trailheads, and then complaining that the areas are being 'loved to death' is silly; what other crowd-limiting factors are there, save for a cumbersome, expensive permit system?

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