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Stefan
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 11:25 pm 
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Unfortunately the sky is not a protected wilderness.
Oil.
Minerals.
Satellites.

same patterns

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Art is an adventure.
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HikerJohn
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 6:50 am 
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The runner in question was interviewed in the Times.  His position?  "It's a calculated risk".

Of course, that's easy to say when his reaction when risk caught up with him was to call for SOMEONE ELSE to get out of their warm bed, drive to the trailhead, walk a few hours in the dark; launch in a helicopter and hover over a wild valley and hoist him up.

If people are going to take calculated risks, they need to be willing to accept the calculated consequences, IMHO.

And I say this as a former Seattle MRC and ESAR volunteer guy-- I don't mind rescuing people when they've had an accident despite doing all the right things, but I reserve the right to call people out if they are just stupid...
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Slugman
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 7:23 am 
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Kiliki obviously didnít read what I wrote. I am not for these new satellites, I just donít like people criticizing things they also claim to know nothing about.

I also pointed out that with putting things in orbit getting so cheap, astronomers should and will start relying on orbiting telescopes. Also, criticisms from astronomers tend to be based on actual knowledge, not crybaby guesswork like is happening with some members here. So I never said or implied that all criticism of these satellites is tin foil hat territory.

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ďThe jerking motion of a knee does not reflect the operation of a mindĒ  Slugman, January 24th 2020
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graywolf
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 8:46 am 
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HikerJohn wrote:
The runner in question was interviewed in the Times.  His position?  "It's a calculated risk".

Of course, that's easy to say when his reaction when risk caught up with him was to call for SOMEONE ELSE to get out of their warm bed, drive to the trailhead, walk a few hours in the dark; launch in a helicopter and hover over a wild valley and hoist him up.

If people are going to take calculated risks, they need to be willing to accept the calculated consequences, IMHO.

And I say this as a former Seattle MRC and ESAR volunteer guy-- I don't mind rescuing people when they've had an accident despite doing all the right things, but I reserve the right to call people out if they are just stupid...

I read that article too, and I'm in total agreement with you.

I was taught that climbing is a calculated risk, and it was my responsibility to minimize that risk not just to myself, but to my loved ones and anyone who might be put on the spot to rescue me.  I take this responsibility very seriously.

Trail runners, like this guy, remind me in a way of a motorcyclist speeding down the road weaving in and out of traffic.  They'll state that they know their limitations, have things under control and that it's a "calculated risk".  Fine.  If you have a wreck/accident, I am absolutely going to help you to the best of my ability, but part of me is still going to think you're a dumbass.

ETA: I do give this guy some kudos, because the follow-up article added some details that the original didn't provide.  He had a raincoat, which he used with some sticks to make a splint.  He also had an emergency blanket, and said that he always takes extra food and water, as well as a backup phone battery.  He also said that he doesn't think he can run alone again.  So, some lessons learned, and I sincerely wish him well.

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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 10:35 am 
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Slugman wrote:
Kiliki obviously didnít read what I wrote. I am not for these new satellites, I just donít like people criticizing things they also claim to know nothing about.

I also pointed out that with putting things in orbit getting so cheap, astronomers should and will start relying on orbiting telescopes. Also, criticisms from astronomers tend to be based on actual knowledge, not crybaby guesswork like is happening with some members here. So I never said or implied that all criticism of these satellites is tin foil hat territory.

reread your post sluggo:
Slugman wrote:
Ah, the tinfoil hat brigade is out in force, hating what they know nothing about. No more dark skies because of a few tiny dots? Hahahaha! Dumbest thing ever written. Our whole civilization has destroyed dark night skies a thousand times worse already, much of the light pollution serving no useful purpose.

Itís amazing to me that people complain from a standpoint of complete ignorance. They hate something even when they donít even know what it can do or what itís for.

we, or at least i, know what we're talking about. i have read about these impacts long before this NWH post. i understand the consequences of these satellites. you are the one with the kneejerk reaction criticizing others. you are the one uninformed.

go crawl back in your hole.
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Anne Elk
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 12:36 pm 
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Here's the link to the story/interview with the trail runner.  He did a good job on himself - both tibia and fibula fractures. Apparently anticipating a barrage of abuse, the Times didn't enable reader commentary.  shakehead.gif

Seattle man reflects on solo trail running

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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reststep
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 12:39 pm 
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graywolf wrote:
ETA: I do give this guy some kudos, because the follow-up article added some details that the original didn't provide.† He had a raincoat, which he used with some sticks to make a splint.† He also had an emergency blanket, and said that he always takes extra food and water, as well as a backup phone battery.† He also said that he doesn't think he can run alone again.† So, some lessons learned, and I sincerely wish him well.

Sounds like he was prepared.

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"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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Doppelganger
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 2:21 pm 
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iron wrote:
and nighttime skies will be forever ruined. perhaps the last thing that wasn't blatantly disfigured by mankind.

sure hope there isn't a collision that fulfills kessler's syndrome.

Some luddite paranoia in this thread  rolleyes.gif  clown.gif  Let's take a deep breath. iron, in the article you linked the number of "astronomers" cited is alternately referred to as "one", "many", and "some". You're certainly welcome to accept that without further question wink.gif  They did quote three real astronomers but had to start scraping for quotes from people at the Secure World Foundation. I noticed that you did not mention any of the plans by Starlink to mitigate the light pollution, cited in the very article that you linked, as well as in two other articles that were available from the same page. I also noticed that you did not reference content from other articles linked from the same article that you linked, discussing the same topics of concern that you raised. Other people do care and things are being done to address those issues. While there is and will be impact, what can we do to minimize or even eliminate that impact? This is a question we might be able to answer if we focused our attention in the right places (maybe on the damn question itself, instead of the fearmongering presented in the article  up.gif )

Where is the raging discussion on flight paths and airliners? Just a little devils advocate here. I don't remember seeing a single TR where anyone said "saw an airplane fly over tonight. ruined the sky for me." How about urban light pollution? Let's get it together now, we have been dealing with sources of light pollution for most of our hiking lives that have had far greater impact on our night skies than we can expect to see from the next decade of satellites tongue.gif  rolleyes.gif

I also find the derision directed toward the trailrunner unusual. Feels like the derision that was directed toward free climbers in the past, and alpine/no oxygen climbers before them. People who are not hikers might see the risks we take as unwarranted. How many of us meet the conditions we are proclaiming as standard for trail runners, are we all carrying Spots and Minis? Where was this indignation over the course of the last 4 or 5 decades? Not trying to say who is wrong or right, just making an observation on the course of the thread.
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Doppelganger
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 2:38 pm 
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iron wrote:
the nighttime sky had been one of the last, if not the last vestige of this planet largely not impacted by humans. it has been a constant for the history of mankind. now it will be littered, forever. so some guy can make a $.

At first I thought you had gone back to edit your previous post lol.gif In a reply to Slugman you claim to 'know what you are talking about', I assume in regards to the Starlink satellites. Can you clarify how this claim is valid when stating that the debris will remain in orbit forever? We can ignore the swipe you felt like you had to take at the project's motives.
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Slugman
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PostThu Feb 27, 2020 5:04 pm 
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Funny how making money becomes evil the moment a tinfoil hat wearer needs a cheap shot.
And I have not seen even one mention by any expert on any link posted here or in my searches on this subject that the sky will be so lit up that average people will be impacted. Billions of people canít even see the stars now.
Just more nonsense from people desperate for something to panic about.

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ďThe jerking motion of a knee does not reflect the operation of a mindĒ  Slugman, January 24th 2020
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Doppelganger
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PostFri Feb 28, 2020 9:04 am 
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Terrestrial light sources have exponentially greater impact than we can currently expect from celestial light sources. One of the guys that Business Insider decided to quote was actually pretty level headed about it, guess that is why they buried him toward the end of their article:

iron's article wrote:
"There is a point at which it makes ground-based astronomy impossible to do," astronomer Jonathan McDowell told the Times. "I'm not saying Starlink is that point. But if you just don't worry about it and go another 10 years with more and more mega-constellations, eventually you are going to come to a point where you can't do astronomy anymore."

McDowell had previously estimated the light magnitude of Starlink satellites to be between 5 and 7 (higher is better on the light magnitude scale  up.gif ), with the potential for ~4 (Venus/Jupiter/North Star) when their solar panels are reflecting light directly towards the observer. The position of the Starlink satellites on the light magnitude scale can likely be further mitigated by some of the measures they are taking now (orbital position and alignment, anti/less reflective coating).

Curling up with Gravity on repeat this weekend might be your best shot at a Kessler event statistically, there are some other fun and fantastic scenarios presented therein to pleasure oneself to as well.
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