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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon



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PostSun May 10, 2020 5:28 pm 
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From one of the broadcast engineering forums I read comes this:

"It was almost three weeks ago that the FCC gave authorization
to Ligado to occupy sections of the 1526-1756 MHz band to
run G5 transmissions.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-20-48A1.pdf

Yesterday, the Pentagon and a number of other entities, including
congress persons, issued highly worried and angry statements about
how this could destroy GPS systems."

From what I've read, this will (again) disrupt GPS receiver capabilities. So again it appears that the lawyers and lobbyists are running the FCC, not the engineering staff. I suggest writing to your favorite congress reps...

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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Slugman
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PostMon May 11, 2020 5:46 am 
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Your post is anonymously quoted nonsense. No link to “congresspersons”?   Of course not.

Clear indication of BS: someone says “again” but never shows evidence of these supposed previous occurrences. He uses this scam twice.

Sounds like more anti 5g conspiracy garbage, thinly veiled.

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“The jerking motion of a knee does not reflect the operation of a mind”  Slugman, January 24th 2020
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon



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PostMon May 11, 2020 6:24 am 
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Slugman wrote:
Your post is anonymously quoted nonsense. No link to “congresspersons”?   Of course not.

Clear indication of BS: someone says “again” but never shows evidence of these supposed previous occurrences. He uses this scam twice.

Sounds like more anti 5g conspiracy garbage, thinly veiled.

Ok Sluggo, the first time this issue was raised (two or three ago) the company was called "Light Squared", and the proposal was not acted upon due to projected interference to GPS receivers from the many land based transmitters which would have been used.

Now they've re-grouped and are trying again, this time under the name of Ligado. And here is some background for you (IF you care to actually read this link before calling it all BS): https://www.gps.gov/spectrum/lightsquared/

The quote I provided was verbatim from the (VERY straightforward) editor of the forum I read and participate in. He does not "troll", and will not tolerate trolling. I understand  that you most likely have no technical background, and it apears that you tend to call BS on anything you don't fully grasp, but try on this one. I know you like to hike in remote areas, so it actually may be to your benefit to take a look at this.

I provided the comment here as many of us do use little handneld, or phone GPS receivers, as well as car navigation units, and have no use for the type of GPSr that are used in aviation or surveying, which may not be affected. And which cost thousands of $ instead of hundreds.

5G is fine with me, except when it causes problems for me, as would interruption of GPS. So there's that. Other than that, I couldn't care less if I have 5G, 4G, or whatever.

edit: I did a brief search and found the earlier reference here (8 years ago, I see): http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7991661&highlight=lightsquared

edit # 2: Further comments from the same engineering forum:

"It wasn't too long ago that LightSquared (or something like that) tried to plant 1kW terrestrial radio transmitters at the edge of the GPS navigation band. As soon as the first licensed, FCC approved, system went on near Trenton, NJ, GPS was unusable in the entire Northeast. After much hassle and litigation it was determined that the current GPS receivers have very broadband front ends and it was THEIR problem. A little later on, some radio engineers got involved (instead of lawyers) and they figured out that the front ends need to be broadband because when a satellite is traveling  towards or away from the receiver at about 17,500 mph, Doppler shif moves the received signal center frequency about +/- 8 MHz. Therefore, the FCC's narrow-band, narrow-minded, view won't work when dealing near the edge of satellite communications frequencies that are not Geo-stationary.

Chock another one up for the FCC

cheers,
Dick Johnson
"


And another perspective from the same forum:

"Okay, here's a good fight tactic.  This is better than 5G.  Without highly accurate GPS, driverless vehicles will be mowing down pedestrians and driving off cliffs.  Little companies like  Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Tesla, Toyota, Uber, Volvo and Volkswagen might be a little concerned.  Oh, and I think I heard of another little company involved, something called Google.

Here is a list of heavy hitters that may not be fully aware of Ligado/LightSquared/etc. and their gambit which will highly impact GPS and preclude any type of precision.  These are the people to be lobbying, they will then take it to the next level in the Swamp.  Just get some really high-credentialed expert to present a comprehensive explanation that an executive can understand, with enough fear factor thrown in to convince them if just ONE of their vehicles kills someone because their GPS was interfered with, they will see giant dollar signs in liability exposure.  These are people who can control Washington, no matter which party governs.  They are your target.
"

Further, I know from personal conversation with one of the Flight Inspection crews (I worked for FAA for ~34 years), that occasionally they would fly near Scott AFB (east St Louis, MO) and when they flew in the area, GPS was sometimes not available/usable, and for a significant radius (10s of miles, maybe 50?) around the general location of Scott AFB. They never did get an admission from the USAF, but it was suspected that they were experimenting with "something".

I also know from personal experience that a very, VERY low level signal (less than 1/10,000th of one watt, if you're interested, and if this is something that you know something about), can be read, and location pinpointed to within 1/10th of a mile, from satellites in the general area of the GPS constellation. Therefore, the opposite follows: a very, VERY small signal level within the GPS authorized frequency band can, and will be "seen" by GPS receivers. in other words, these frequency band limits are not as sharp and clear as, say your neighborhood fence. They overlap, and that's just the way the laws of physics are.

So, that's what I know. I'm usually on the side of commerce, but not when it steps all over "what's right" regarding personal...whatevers.

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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neek
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PostMon May 11, 2020 6:45 am 
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I remember the lightsqared thing.  Here's a recent post from the DoD.

https://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2181457/dod-private-sector-leaders-see-danger-to-gps-due-to-fcc-licensing-ruling/

Quote:
DOD and Transportation Department studies have shown that Ligado's ambitions will be harmful to military and civilian GPS receivers and that there's no way to protect millions of mobile GPS devices that would be disrupted, he said.

Hope this works out.
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treeswarper
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Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostMon May 11, 2020 7:26 am 
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Dagorapafadditzt!

I have been more seriously thinking about getting some sort of GPS after years of not having one.  Guess I will keep on delaying.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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MtnGoat
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PostMon May 11, 2020 8:45 am 
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They're OK, but you don't learn maps very well if you start with one. If you're already dialed in on maps, then they're an easy shortcut for some uses, and some fun ( the GF is a geocacher.)

And your phone probably has one anyway unless it's a flip phone.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostMon May 11, 2020 8:50 am 
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neek wrote:
I remember the lightsqared thing.  Here's a recent post from the DoD.

https://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2181457/dod-private-sector-leaders-see-danger-to-gps-due-to-fcc-licensing-ruling/

neek wrote:
Hope this works out.

It's very tricky to operate close to L1 freqs and the issue is made worse by the fact that there are a zillion varieties of GPS and all receiver/antenna combos respond to near, or in band, unintentional jammers differently.

I did some work on a related issue recently with three different receiving systems and single source 'problem' transmitter, and one setup would lose all satellites the instant you turned on the problem, one would lose a few dB S/N on the sats but remain operating, the other didn't care at all.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon



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Happy Curmudgeon
PostMon May 11, 2020 9:21 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Dagorapafadditzt!

I have been more seriously thinking about getting some sort of GPS after years of not having one.  Guess I will keep on delaying.

Go ahead and get one, I suspect that this will play out for quite a while.

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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Washakie
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PostMon May 11, 2020 9:27 am 
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I will ask Captain Queeg to look into this.

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"We're all normal when we want our freedom" - Arthur Lee

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PostMon May 11, 2020 12:03 pm 
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...and then ask Saul Goodman's brother to investigate.

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"What is the color when black is burned?" - Neil Young

"We're all normal when we want our freedom" - Arthur Lee

"The internet can make almost anyone seem intelligent"  - Washakie
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Cyclopath
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Faster than light
PostMon May 11, 2020 12:57 pm 
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Thanks for the info moonspots.
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon



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Happy Curmudgeon
PostMon May 11, 2020 8:05 pm 
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Washakie wrote:
...and then ask Saul Goodman's brother to investigate.

lol.gif Good show, good series.  up.gif

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon



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PostMon May 11, 2020 8:06 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Thanks for the info moonspots.

Yessir, and I hope some letter writing will do some good here.

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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Washakie
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PostMon May 11, 2020 10:56 pm 
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...and we should allow sluggo to post again.

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"We're all normal when we want our freedom" - Arthur Lee

"The internet can make almost anyone seem intelligent"  - Washakie
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Cyclopath
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PostWed May 13, 2020 1:08 pm 
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moonspots wrote:
Yessir, and I hope some letter writing will do some good here.

agree.gif
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