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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu May 21, 2020 2:55 pm 
I liked the idea of a shuttle because it could make thru hikes easier. Many cannot do the whole wonderland.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Carbonj
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PostThu May 21, 2020 4:37 pm 
Have heard no climbing above 10,000 this year.

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Hutch
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PostThu May 21, 2020 5:01 pm 
Carbonj wrote:
Have heard no climbing above 10,000 this year.
Makes sense to limit it in a lot of ways - the shelters that the guiding services use at Camp Muir seem like they'd be a high risk area for infection to spread, with people packed together like sardines and breathing heavy every night. Not to mention those toilets. That said it feels like if people can use their own tents climbing the mountain is fairly low risk.

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PostThu May 21, 2020 5:23 pm 
dixon wrote:
Perhaps the shuttle proposal wouldn't be defeated now.
That is a big "perhaps". A more viable "perhaps" would be that perhaps those people thinking that Mt. Rainier National Park would be a great destination on a sunny Summer weekend afternoon could perhaps avail themselves to any number of recreational opportunities, many of them in the very same neighborhood. It's not like we've got a shortage of places to go here. More importantly, you're talking about putting into place an entirely new piece of infrastructure, the cost of which would far exceed the Park's budgetary constraints just for the initial cost of the vehicles. The Park doesn't own any real estate near Ashford suitable for storing and maintaining a fleet of vehicles, so the real estate would have to be purchased, and maintenance facilities constructed (which would require approval through NEPA, and that won't fly because you simply cannot flush that many toilets that close to the Nisqually River.)(Remember that you have to also have a full-time, 24/7, 365-day-a-year qualified repair and maintenance crew on site, in addition to vehicles capable of towing downed shuttle busses down off the mountain in inclement weather.) It was a hare-brained scheme in 1997. With the increases in costs and tighter environmental regulations, it's now delusional pipe-dream stuff. IF the idea were feasible, the guy that owns all that real estate on the north side of 706 just past Ashford would have already built his 18-hole golf course, resort, casino, and kiddie-land miniature railroad. It hasn't happened, and it ain't gonna.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Riverside Laker
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PostThu May 21, 2020 7:59 pm 
Ski wrote:
The average length of stay in the parking lot that day (over the course of about five hours) was 20 minutes.
Wow, that's an interesting measurement. Probably that number hasn't changed a lot. Still, it seems like a shuttle would be a good thing, even if it only reduced traffic by, say, 20%. I wonder if a voluntary shuttle with reduced entry fees would work? Or more properly, an increased driving fee. And free for bikes, of course!

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PostThu May 21, 2020 8:54 pm 
^ I was quite surprised, but I sat there in my truck with a Thermos and some munchies the better part of an afternoon and watched it myself. People drive all the way up there, get out of the car, dance around in the parking lot for a few minutes, take a couple snapshots, and leave. That's not unique to the parking lot at Paradise. When I was working the beach trails at Kalaloch, I saw the same thing: couples in rental cars - or with plates from as far away as Florida - pull over at Beach #1, open the trunk and don windbreakers, walk down to the beach, take a few snapshots, climb back up the hill, and drive off. Couldn't even begin to count the number of times I watched that happen out there at all of those beach access trails when I was out there doing trail work. When you start penciling out the numbers on what would be required for a shuttle service, which (in reality) would only be needed less than maybe a dozen days out of the entire year, the overall costs - the initial monetary investment and the requisite on-going maintenance and payroll and insurance costs - the dollar amounts just get crazy.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Cyclopath
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PostThu May 21, 2020 9:47 pm 
I don't think crazy dollar amounts is a reason it shouldn't happen. I mean we've spent trillions this year, it's like monopoly money. They don't even have to fire printing presses anymore, it's digital now. We've been creating money out of thin air since before I've been alive and it works. How much does it cost to run the ferries? I've seen virtually empty ships running between Edmonds and Kingston. I've seen people get off, then go right back on again and sail back where they just came from. I assume most are tourists staying in hotels, eating at restaurants, helping our economy. I'd expect that at Rainier too, and low stress (not personally fighting traffic) calls for more of it. We're in a pandemic and it'll be years before the idea of non essential public transit is palatable again.

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PostFri May 22, 2020 8:17 am 
^ That's not really a good comparison. The Washington State Ferries are operated by the Washington State Department of Transporation, the Black Hole of Budget Money. The National Parks are operated on a shoestring and their congressional funding appropriations get clipped every time Congress gets a chance to do it. Apples and oranges.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostFri May 22, 2020 9:38 am 
Meanwhile, news from MBSNF that's relevant to the supposed point of this thread
Quote:
Everett, Wash. – Starting May 22, the Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest (MBS) will begin a phased reopening of trailheads, day-use areas, and other developed recreation sites. “We are making every effort to expand access within the context of CDC guidelines and state and local government orders for residents,” said Nicole Branton, acting forest supervisor. “To align with our Washington State partners, we will be reopening sites where we can do so safely.” Most trailheads and day use facilities will reopen on May 22. Campgrounds will remain closed during this first phase so forest staff and concessionaires can prepare them for operation. Additionally, some trailheads and day-use areas are still snow covered or inaccessible due to winter storm damage and may remain closed until access can be restored. Restrooms will be closed; garbage service and water facilities will be unavailable. Visitors should plan to be as self-sufficient as possible, this includes bringing their own water, knowing how to properly dispose of human and dog waste, and packing out all garbage. “The level of service we can provide will depend on several factors, including workforce capacity, and the ability to provide services in a manner that is safe for our employees,” public services staff officer Mike Schlafmann said. “Many operational tasks we normally do to prepare for opening recreation sites have been delayed, we will be working to complete these tasks and prepare for sites to open while protecting the health and safety of our employees, volunteers, partners, recreation providers, and the public. Forest visitors are encouraged to know before they go. Check ahead of time to find out what local conditions and closures may be.

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PostFri May 22, 2020 9:47 am 
YAY!

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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williswall
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PostFri May 22, 2020 11:11 pm 
Carbonj wrote:
Have heard no climbing above 10,000 this year.
from the website: Those wishing to climb above 10,000 feet or onto any glaciers must pay the climbing cost recovery fee AND get a climbing permit. This includes skiers or "single push climbers". Climbers who wish to camp overnight must also get a Wilderness Permit in order to acquire a camp site.

I desire medium danger williswall.com
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altasnob
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PostFri May 29, 2020 8:50 am 
From Crosscut, What does it take to reopen Washington's wilderness? As Washington public lands begin a patchwork reopening, outdoor advocates push for a unified message. I am confused how Crystal mountain ski area plans on opening on June 1 even thought they are in Pierce County, which is still in Phase 1 and appears to stay that way after June 1 (Snohomish and Pierce Co are both planning on seeking a variance that, if approved, would allow them to go to Phase 2 even though their infection rates are too high. King County isn't even trying to go to Phase 2 yet based on too high infection rate). MRNP says on their twitter they will open Paradise "when Washington State moves to Phase Two, which is expected in early June." This is very confusing to me because when the state, as a whole, moves to Phase 2 is not based on a specific date, but depends on infection rates. So not sure how MRNP can think this is happening in early June when I haven't read anything to suggest that to be true. Also, if Pierce is granted the variance to move to Phase 2 (despite high infection rates) will MRNP open (because it is mostly in Pierce Co) even though King Co is stil in Phase 1?

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Luc
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PostFri May 29, 2020 11:09 am 
North Cascades are starting to re-open: https://www.nps.gov/noca/learn/news/north-cascades-nps-complex-begins-to-increase-recreational-access-to-day-use-areas.htm I'm still kind of irked that camping is not allowed, even in no-fee areas. I understand why, but it's still a bummer. Those still nights are what I'm mostly after.

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Sallie4jo
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PostFri May 29, 2020 6:34 pm 
Just drove back rt 20...they r definitely opening up some areas..including taking dow thw barriers into look outs, the park offices and thunder creek. I drove over this am...all locked up..this pm...taking stuff down..wondering if rainier and olympics will be following suit?..way too hot today by mazama... almost 90....better at 65 in my opinion. Cheers

I choose to live in a landscape of hope. Terry Tempest Williams
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FiresideChats
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PostFri May 29, 2020 8:25 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Also, if Pierce is granted the variance to move to Phase 2 (despite high infection rates) will MRNP open (because it is mostly in Pierce Co) even though King Co is stil in Phase 1?
Exactly. This whole process is a fascinating national experiment in federalism and divided power. In my classes this week, I had students examine the types of public land in WA, with the examples of Federal, State, City, and non-profit land for public use. They each researched a different example of of how public lands are used and managed from the Tolt Reservoir to Bangor Submarine Base (shhh...) to MRNP. One of the more engaging remote lessons I've done. It is always fun to remind them that they are part owners in millions of acres of land, just in our state. What I've really appreciated about the shelter-in-place period is that it is essentially voluntary. The vast majority of the public is following most of the guidance most of the time. There has been little real enforcement and there could have been little effective enforcement. What that means to me is that ultimately the public ourselves have enacted the policy directed by our elected leaders. I think our democracy is alive and well. As for authority, it seems that the welter of state and federal guidelines leaves lots of room for exceptions - plenty of people still working under the rules during the "shelter in place." The federal guidance to follow the state lead is not a binding agreement. So we're left with "we'll refer to Inslee's plan, and it will impact what we do, but we'll still make decisions for our Park-Forest-Etc." The effective or de facto result is a gradual erosion of strict rules and an eager plunge into the cracks in those rules by those who tend to push authority for liberty, while the rule-followers emerge more slowly onto the scene out of respect for the responsibility of the moment. As a person I tend towards the first group; as a teacher I force myself to hang with the second group, so I feel like I get both dispositions and value both types of people for the health of our democracy.

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